[Diver]

大屁股现在都没影了。

[子龙]

不自觉地想到了老毛的几句诗词“小小寰球，有几个（只）苍蝇碰壁，嗡嗡叫，几声凄厉，几声抽泣”。

[中国足协副主席]

最初由 Diver 发布
大屁股现在都没影了。

挺想念大屁股的，还在渥太华吗？

[~流浪的狮子~]

经典!5年多过去了,不知道现在大家都怎样了?

[Stephen唐士明]

作者: 大屁股

加拿大这地方，地广人稀，除了胡光山色好点以外没什么好玩的。可就在这几天，居然在这个网上找到了一个新乐子――玩愤青。

Personally, I prefer to ignore such fools. This forum has excellent software, why not use it?

愤青和狗熊的共同之处在于他们都不懂得在公共场合有些事情是做不得的，最典型不过的就是那个几分钟之前刚刚被Riven处理掉的专门拿生殖器说事儿的那个主儿。我绝对相信愤青们在骂街的时候内心是无比虔诚的。他们不懂得暴露自己的无知、浅薄和无赖是一件丢人的事，原因就在于其内心的“虔诚”。就那刚刚被Riven拿下的那个主来说，据说还是“文学院”里一个不大不小的角儿，平时也会舞文弄墨写点吟风弄月的小资文字，可是一到跟意识形态沾边的事情上就嘴把不住门，非得把论坛当公共厕所不可。也许是在国内的时候接触异见文字太少，现在一旦遇上，其内心的惊讶和愤怒不由自主地升华成一种畸形的责任感，特别是在他看到自己人抵挡不住敌人秋风扫落叶般的雄辩的时候，自然而然想到了自己平时最擅长的骂街，居然在这个时候成了个无比有用的资源。骂几句脏话给这些“汉奸”、“台独”、“法论公”们，让他觉得无比悲壮和豪迈。

This sounds exactly like the idiots in outuo. Problem is, even the moderators there are fènqīng.

For example : 这mir是不是台湾来的，专门捣乱的？？ - 欧拓社区 .

其实，年轻人由于生理原因而具备的某种天生的正义感并不是什么坏事，但可悲的是这种天真的正义经常被某些老谋深算的无耻之徒所摆布。文革就是个绝佳的例子。平时被老师、校长训的狗血喷头的小公鸡们，一旦得到伟大领袖“打倒一切反动学术权威”、“打倒一切牛鬼蛇神”的最高指示，就忽然间恍然大悟：原来我一直功课不及格，并不是因为是因为我苯，而是受到了“反动学术权威”的欺压！所以，响应主席号召的结果，就是成批成批的优秀教师被自己学生活活打死也就不奇怪了。

One could make an interesting anthropological study about the isolated cases of cannibalism during the Cultural Revolution. Did the students think that they could gain the intelligence of their teachers by eating them? (It is common among savages from primitive cultures to think that they can gain the courage of their enemies by ritual cannibalism.)

A Tale of Red Guards and Cannibals - New York Times

“愤青”只能诞生在中国，因为只有中国具备出产愤青的土壤。

Nonsense. Go to any Jihadi or Islamic terrorist site and you will find the same kind of people. Uneducated youths who are going through puberty. And older fanatics who are trying to manipulate them...

这种土壤就是非理性的思维传统和思想专制的社会传统，而这个其实并不是共产党造成的，是我们5000年历史形成的沉淀物。

At the most, you Chinese have about 4,000 years of recorded history.

中国人从来不擅长理性思维，让我们无比尴尬气短的是5000年历史的国家居然没有几个能拿得出手的思想家和哲学家。让我们无比自豪的孔夫子和老子，其学术研究主要兴趣还在于伦理道德的阐述，算不上什么真正的理性哲学，因而在黑格尔眼睛里最多只能算是“常识哲学”。这种“常识哲学”不但和大致同时期的释迦牟尼没法比，跟后世的笛卡尔、黑格尔、康德等人更是不在同一个档次上。我们最拿得出手的数学家居然是一个只会把圆周率算到3.1415926的宋朝人。

I am not too certain about this. In any case, please realize that philosophers such as Hobbes, Spinoza, Descartes, Kant, etc. are of quite recent origin. Essentially what you are saying is that China never has had an Enlightenment.

中国历朝历代的反理性传统，在共产党执政的时候达到空前绝后的发扬光大。最应该理性反思的历史文献，也居然到处充满煽情的描写，让读者不得不在一开始就接受预设的立场。党的喉舌们在播送新闻稿件的时候，永远是字正腔圆理直气壮义正词严，仿佛坐在对面的不是摄影师而是人民的公敌李登辉。

Again, this may be similar to Arab regimes.

思想专制传统更不用多说了，我在这个坛子里很早就聊过这个话题。从汉朝的董仲舒“废掇百家，独尊儒术”的主张被采纳以后，中国人的大脑在官方意识形态的笼罩之下，竟然连几个能上得了台面的异议人士都没出几个。不过，历朝历代的思想专制，跟咱们今天的“紧密团结在党中央周围”都根本没法比。一个思想，一个元首，一个文化，中国人的大脑就是在这么一种无比纯净的万事大同的无菌环境里长大的，所以，一旦走出国门接触万般变化的多彩世界，就一定会被真实世界的纷繁震惊得目瞪口呆，进而转化为发自骨髓的愤怒。这就是“愤青”之所以产生的深层原因。

This is a partial explanation of the problem. However, the people in the May Fourth Movement were also fènqīng. Ditto for the demonstrators on 6/4/1989. The problem is that the modern version is no longer progressive - the average fènqīng today is a racist totalitarian reactionary.

“愤青”是中国特有的一大社会奇观。

Naw. Go to any Islamic forum and you will see the same pricks.

老兄说得很对，今天的“愤青”就是昨天“红卫兵”的翻版，因为出产这种奇观的社会基础被完整地保留了下来。

I would agree. The sad thing is that most modern fènqīng have no real idea about how great China's history and culture is. This makes conversations with them extremely boring - even a foreigner like me sometimes knows more about China than they do.

There is a simple test for such "peasants" - ask them to write their chauvinistic arguments in Classical Chinese (文言文). If they can't, they are hypocrites - too lazy to make the effort to delve into the depths of their own culture and history.

“文革”的最可怕之处在于它实际上并不是我党某些大人物“一不留神”发动起来的，而是5000年的历史基淀在20世纪释放的一次“泥石流”。消灭愤青，最根本的出路还在于开放我们的头脑。开放，开放，只有我们的头脑更加开放，才能彻底摆脱几千年形成的历史积淀，迎头赶上我们在国际上大大小小的对手。重新树立中国人的自信，再现华夏文明的辉煌，中国人还有很长的路需要走。

This forum is going to be fun - interesting people and excellent software.

[Stephen唐士明]

作者: visitor

...朝鲜战争的另一个作用是，广大红卫兵和后来的"愤青"自以为有了"把红旗插遍全球"的实力，全然忘却了苏修的支持和后盾，就象塔利班忘记了打跑苏修靠的是美国一样。据说叶帅临终前曾说: 文革是中国的一种社会现象，十几二十年要来一来。庆幸的是，文革在结束二十来年后没有再来，不幸的是，当年的红卫兵脱下革命的军装，换上民族主义的大衣，用买来的苏制武器替换掉当年的小米加步枪，又粉墨登场了。

This brings up an interesting question. How do young Chinese cope with the fact that some of their relatives were torturers, murderers and cannibals during the Cultural Revolution?

In Germany, there was the 1960's movement where (in part) West German youth tried to come to terms with the Nazi past of their families. The problem was that their parents tried to pretend that they were never involved and their teachers avoided the subject in classes. Thus, the youth of this era were in rebellion against this hypocrisy and asked some hard questions. When they moved into academia, the media, and politics, they started doing research to get a more accurate historical picture of the events - and to discover and punish the Nazi criminals who had made new careers in the Federal Republic of Germany.

Is this a taboo subject in China (as in East Germany) or are there some activists and historians who are trying to uncover secrets from this time and analyze them? Is it normal for Chinese children to ask their parents about their role during this dark era? Or is everything swept under the rug and "forgotten"?

[Stephen唐士明]

作者: 伊桃碧谷

有些人不知是怎么了，反共反出毛病来了。在嘲笑别人的时候还
是先看看你们自己是多数还是少数，别让别人觉得象是在看小丑。
搞笑！

The point is not whether one is in the majority or not. For example, with your support of the CCP, you definitely are in the minority in the Western world. Do I jeer at you for this? Of course not. You are as dangerous as a Nazi or an Islamic terrorist.

[巫术人]

作者: Stephen唐士明

This brings up an interesting question. How do young Chinese cope with the fact that some of their relatives were torturers, murderers and cannibals during the Cultural Revolution?

In Germany, there was the 1960's movement where (in part) West German youth tried to come to terms with the Nazi past of their families. The problem was that their parents tried to pretend that they were never involved and their teachers avoided the subject in classes. Thus, the youth of this era were in rebellion against this hypocrisy and asked some hard questions. When they moved into academia, the media, and politics, they started doing research to get a more accurate historical picture of the events - and to discover and punish the Nazi criminals who had made new careers in the Federal Republic of Germany.

Is this a taboo subject in China (as in East Germany) or are there some activists and historians who are trying to uncover secrets from this time and analyze them? Is it normal for Chinese children to ask their parents about their role during this dark era? Or is everything swept under the rug and "forgotten"?

首先要说，此主贴作者似乎因为论坛上的一些口角和怨气，在暗示现有的中国国家领导人和政府人员都是当初文革的迫害者，也似乎给您造成了这样的印象。实际上他们当初大多是文革的受害者。毛泽东发动的文化大革命，其革命目标首先指向当时的当权派，也就是共产党内部的掌权者，他们都是当初和毛泽东一起武装夺取政权的人和同志。

那么这些当权派的后代有些已经开始在中国政府内部掌权，当初也受到毛泽东发动这场运动的冲击，甚至被称为狗崽子。如果说当年他们也是红卫兵，那是因为全国性和服装如此，只有如此才能自保。

比如邓小平就曾经被毛泽东搞得三起三落。毛泽东死后邓小平才掌权。而随后的江泽民和胡锦涛也是基本上秉承邓小平的路线的。因为共产党政权现有的最大的掌权者的特性造成了，当年的红卫兵并没有在中国的政府掌权。且中共的官员体系是有严格的历史档案的，如果谁是当初的红卫兵的头目造反派，那么它已经不可能获得晋升机会了。至于清算，那要交给司法部门，当初的有些红卫兵头目们确实进了监狱，他们在共产党内部文件中，被称为“三种人”。这和你们美国政府当初占领日本和德国以后还要任用以前的纳粹政府官员不同。纳粹的后裔的清算，实际上是清理你们美国政府因为自己的方便留在这些国家的旧账。而日本在这方面做得非常不好。德国人做得比较出色，也就是给你们美国政府的不彻底清理纳粹擦屁股。

现在完全尊崇毛泽东的思想和路线的人在中国，同样是中国现政府的异见者，他们利用中国底层民众的疾苦试图重新掌握政权是真的，不过按照敌人的敌人就是朋友的原理，假设美国政府希望中国崩溃，他们应该是你们美国政府的朋友才是对的，但是他们一般来说秉承毛泽东路线，会认为你们的美国政府是美帝国主义，对于你们美国政府来说不太好直接收买，只能暗中怂恿他们去斗争中国现政府。

所以看出这里面的所谓纳粹的后裔们清算自己的在德意志联邦政府中工作的长辈，和这个所谓的文革清算根本就扯不上关系。

将现有的共产党和当初的纳粹和伊斯兰极端分子联系起来，会产生对中国形势的误判。而对于形势的误判是对人类未来发展的灾难。

至于民族主义，纳粹，伊斯兰极端分子，共产主义定义和区别，现有的共产党为什么要利用民族主义这把双刃剑，容我随后说一下子。

[Stephen唐士明]

作者: 巫术人

首先要说，此主贴作者似乎因为论坛上的一些口角和怨气，在暗示现有的中国国家领导人和政府人员都是当初文革的迫害者，也似乎给您造成了这样的印象。实际上他们当初大多是文革的受害者。毛泽东发动的文化大革命，其革命目标首先指向当时的当权派，也就是共产党内部的掌权者，他们都是当初和毛泽东一起武装夺取政权的人和同志。

那么这些当权派的后代有些已经开始在中国政府内部掌权，当初也受到毛泽东发动这场运动的冲击，甚至被称为狗崽子。如果说当年他们也是红卫兵，那是因为全国性和服装如此，只有如此才能自保。

O.K. You make a good point. The people in power today come from the same families who were in power during the 1950s.

比如邓小平就曾经被毛泽东搞得三起三落。毛泽东死后邓小平才掌权。而随后的江泽民和胡锦涛也是基本上秉承邓小平的路线的。

And Deng fully supported the massacres and persecution of the intellectuals before the Cultural Revolution.

因为共产党政权现有的最大的掌权者的特性造成了，当年的红卫兵并没有在中国的政府掌权。且中共的官员体系是有严格的历史档案的，如果谁是当初的红卫兵的头目造反派，那么它已经不可能获得晋升机会了。至于清算，那要交给司法部门，当初的有些红卫兵头目们确实进了监狱，他们在共产党内部文件中，被称为“三种人”。

Interesting.

这和你们美国政府当初占领日本和德国以后还要任用以前的纳粹政府官员不同。纳粹的后裔的清算，实际上是清理你们美国政府因为自己的方便留在这些国家的旧账。而日本在这方面做得非常不好。德国人做得比较出色，也就是给你们美国政府的不彻底清理纳粹擦屁股。

Irrelevant. The fact is that the Germans have come to terms with their own history. The Japanese and Mainland Chinese have not. This said, the Japanese are far more guilty than the Chinese - they live in a pluralistic society.

现在完全尊崇毛泽东的思想和路线的人在中国，同样是中国现政府的异见者，他们利用中国底层民众的疾苦试图重新掌握政权是真的，不过按照敌人的敌人就是朋友的原理，假设美国政府希望中国崩溃，他们应该是你们美国政府的朋友才是对的，但是他们一般来说秉承毛泽东路线，会认为你们的美国政府是美帝国主义，对于你们美国政府来说不太好直接收买，只能暗中怂恿他们去斗争中国现政府。

My government using Maoists to promote instability in China? Possible - we used Jihadists against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. However, the only Chinese that I have heard of who wish to 崩溃 China are the FLG and the Minyun.

所以看出这里面的所谓纳粹的后裔们清算自己的在德意志联邦政府中工作的长辈，和这个所谓的文革清算根本就扯不上关系。

Your point is accepted. Let me rephrase the question. Have any children of the current ruling class raised difficult questions about the crimes committed by the Communist Party during the beginning years of the People's Republic? Or are they and their parents proud of the massacres, the "thought rectification campaigns", and the Hundred Flowers Movement (百花运动) ?

Is this a taboo subject in China (as in East Germany) or are there some activists and historians who are trying to uncover secrets from this time and analyze them? Is it normal for Chinese children to ask their grandparents about their role during this dark era? Or is everything swept under the rug and "forgotten"?

将现有的共产党和当初的纳粹和伊斯兰极端分子联系起来，会产生对中国形势的误判。而对于形势的误判是对人类未来发展的灾难。

My point was that 大屁股 was claiming that fènqīng are a phenomena unique to China.

Nonsense : violent & poorly educated trolls are also to be found in Muslim and Western forums.

至于民族主义，纳粹，伊斯兰极端分子，共产主义定义和区别，现有的共产党为什么要利用民族主义这把双刃剑，容我随后说一下子。

Take your time in explaining. I am also active in French and Spanish forums - and thus may be slow to reply.