[cvictor]

坐化的是绝食而死？

[wushuren]

我的这个同学想回国，而他的妻子不同意。两个人为此事天天吵。他妻子是他的同学的妹妹。

[cvictor]

最初由 wushuren 发布
我的这个同学想回国，而他的妻子不同意。两个人为此事天天吵。他妻子是他的同学的妹妹。

劝他回国去，澳洲个袋鼠呆的地方。

[wushuren]

最初由 cvictor 发布

劝他回国去，澳洲个袋鼠呆的地方。

最早的时候，澳大利亚只有袋鼠，考拉熊和土著毛利人等。

后来英国人来了，是英国人中素质最差的罪犯。

即澳大利亚是英国罪犯的流放地。

到了后来澳大利亚成了一个白人国家，也成为了一个发达国家。

可见，欧洲文明体系能把一个罪犯流放地变成发达国家。

但他的缺点也是明显的。那就是除非通过屠杀和驱赶的方式把白人上升为主要人口和主流社会，那就无法在那个地方造就出近代和随后的现代发达国家。屠杀和隔离这种方式已经被现代社会所不容许。澳大利亚也出现过排华，这是可以找到历史源头的。

因为看到这一现象，有人主张全盘西化，甚至全员改信西方宗教，也就是在文化主流上试图变化成西方，类似于用文明和文化屠杀来替代近代西方扩张中出现的种族屠杀和隔离制度。

[wushuren]

另外一种有能力造就发达国家的文化在东方，加上吸收一些西方的先进成分，势头很盛。韩国，台湾，新加坡，日本，香港等。这些地区都不是白种人为主流社会。共同特点为，均与中华文明有着根源上的联系，或者本身就是一部分。

[yokel]

最初由 wushuren 发布
印象中，坐化的高僧岁数都已经很大了。
个人不认为坐化是自杀，所以不存在什么反话问题。既没有吃毒药，也没有投河，也没有上吊，也没有吞弹，也没有跳楼等。很像是无疾无痛而终。您要非说那是自杀，我也不想抬杠。这个问题需要去问佛教徒。或者您如果是医生，也可以去研究一下这个问题，搞清楚它，功德无量。

"印象中，坐化的高僧岁数都已经很大了。"

Are you saying that whether or not it's a suicide depends on the person's age?...

"个人不认为坐化是自杀... 我也不想抬杠"

I have no interested in 抬杠 with you or anyone else. I'm not even interested in changing what you believe. I was simply presenting facts. You can find the mentioning of "坐化" in many books or literature on Taoism and buddhism as well as on "qi gong".

"很像是无疾无痛而终"

My understanding of "无疾而终" seems to mean that someone died of natural course not caused by desease and without any deliberate means of human intervention such as someone died in his/her sleep or in similar situations. On the hand you seem to overlooked one fundamental common character shown in both your examples such as "吃毒药，投河，上吊，吞弹，跳楼" and "坐化". The comnon character is the deliberate means of human intervention happened during meditation causing death.

You don't seem to be familiar with the concept of "坐化", yet at the same time you seem strangely somewhat convinced that "个人不认为坐化是自杀". If you still think "佛教禁止杀生，自然也禁止杀自己。", let me give you another example. During 1960s in Vietnam, there were about 7 incidents that Buddhist monks/nuns set themseves on fire and burned themselves to death. Please note these were professional fulltime monks/nuns, not at-home practitioners.

"您也可以去研究一下这个问题，搞清楚它，功德无量。"

Thanks for the suggestion. But I think I know what "坐化" is or at least for the most part. You don't have to believe what I said. If you want, or anyone else interested in it, you can do a google search. There're probably many sites where have explanations about the concept.

[wushuren]

最初由 yokel 发布

"印象中，坐化的高僧岁数都已经很大了。"

Are you saying that whether or not it's a suicide depends on the person's age?...

"个人不认为坐化是自杀... 我也不想抬杠"

I have no interested in 抬杠 with you or anyone else. I'm not even interested in changing what you believe. I was simply presenting facts. You can find the mentioning of "坐化" in many books or literature on Taoism and buddhism as well as on "qi gong".

"很像是无疾无痛而终"

My understanding of "无疾而终" seems to mean that someone died of natural course not caused by desease and without any deliberate means of human intervention such as someone died in his/her sleep or in similar situations. On the hand you seem to overlooked one fundamental common character shown in both your examples such as "吃毒药，投河，上吊，吞弹，跳楼" and "坐化". The comnon character is the deliberate means of human intervention happened during meditation causing death.

You don't seem to be familiar with the concept of "坐化", yet at the same time you seem strangely somewhat convinced that "个人不认为坐化是自杀". If you still think "佛教禁止杀生，自然也禁止杀自己。", let me give you another example. During 1960s in Vietnam, there were about 7 incidents that Buddhist monks/nuns set themseves on fire and burned themselves to death. Please note these were professional fulltime monks/nuns, not at-home practitioners.

"您也可以去研究一下这个问题，搞清楚它，功德无量。"

Thanks for the suggestion. But I think I know what "坐化" is or at least for the most part. You don't have to believe what I said. If you want, or anyone else interested in it, you can do a google search. There're probably many sites where have explanations about the concept.

听从您的建议，我回头去看看相关资料。

佛教徒自焚听说过。既然其它宗教都有极端分子，那么为什么佛教单单没有？只不过印象中佛教的极端分子是对其他人危害最小的。伊斯兰极端分子自杀的同时要杀别人的。越南的那几个僧尼自焚估计不是因为和老婆丈夫吵架或者找不到工作吧？既然坐化也是自杀，他们怎么不坐化了？然后再被烧，非要活烧，难道是为了单纯取得震撼力。

个人认为坐化还是有谜团没解开的，书面网上介绍的方法不一定对欧，所以还是需要医学工作者研究的。如果这么简单，谁来试试亚，那么大家想自杀的都别跳楼跳桥了，网上找个资料，学着坐化坐化就可以了，记住了不许服毒不许上吊等，或许一睁眼，就到了西方极乐世界了。俺这段确实是正话反说。

能不能举个正统基督教徒自杀的例子看看。美国大卫教派的就算了。

佛教徒不认为坐化是自杀，他们认为是去转世或者去了西方极乐。具体的方法，我确实不知道，也不认为坐化是自杀，算个习惯性跟随的想法，也不想贬低和诋毁佛教徒和这门宗教。我们知道，如果说坐化是自杀，那么有贬低那些一辈子向善度人的高僧的嫌疑。到老了，人家能无疾无痛而终，您却要说他们是自杀死的。可以强调一下，人家那是坐化，修成的正果，不是随便你我往哪里一坐就能化了的，我们都是要去接受临终的疾病折磨的，算个最后的磨练乐章。这是基督教无数人派对其它宗教的尊重。

[yokel]

最初由 wushuren 发布
听从您的建议，我回头去看看相关资料。

佛教徒自焚听说过。既然其它宗教都有极端分子，那么为什么佛教单单没有？只不过印象中佛教的极端分子是对其他人危害最小的。伊斯兰极端分子自杀的同时要杀别人的。越南的那几个僧尼自焚估计不是因为和老婆丈夫吵架或者找不到工作吧？既然坐化也是自杀，他们怎么不坐化了？然后再被烧，非要活烧，难道是为了单纯取得震撼力。

个人认为坐化还是有谜团没解开的，书面网上介绍的方法不一定对欧，所以还是需要医学工作者研究的。如果这么简单，谁来试试亚，那么大家想自杀的都别跳楼跳桥了，网上找个资料，学着坐化坐化就可以了，记住了不许服毒不许上吊等，或许一睁眼，就到了西方极乐世界了。俺这段确实是正话反说。

能不能举个正统基督教徒自杀的例子看看。美国大卫教派的就算了。

佛教徒不认为坐化是自杀，他们认为是去转世或者去了西方极乐。具体的方法，我确实不知道，也不认为坐化是自杀，算个习惯性跟随的想法，也不想贬低和诋毁佛教徒和这门宗教。我们知道，如果说坐化是自杀，那么有贬低那些一辈子向善度人的高僧的嫌疑。到老了，人家能无疾无痛而终，您却要说他们是自杀死的。可以强调一下，人家那是坐化，修成的正果，不是随便你我往哪里一坐就能化了的，我们都是要去接受临终的疾病折磨的，算个最后的磨练乐章。这是基督教无数人派对其它宗教的尊重。

Sorry I was busy lately so wasn't able to respond in time.

"既然其它宗教都有极端分子，那么为什么佛教单单没有？"

First of all I'm not sure if ALL other religions have extremists. That's a pretty grandiose statement unless you have studied and researched ALL other religions. Well, that's not something I'm interested to talk or ask you about at this moment, but what if someone asks you how many religions there are in the world and what they are? I think you get my point...

If your above statement meant you personally think those Vietnam monks/nuns were extremists, I have no comment at this point. If you claim or imply both Buddhist teaching and Buddhist community believe and have condemned those Vietnam monks/nuns were extremists, as you claimed "佛教禁止杀生，自然也禁止杀自己。" I would like to ask you to provide evidence to support your argument, since I haven't read or heard that Buddhist community has condemned those Vietnam monks/nuns were extremists yet.

"既然坐化也是自杀，他们怎么不坐化了？"

This is a funny statement. If someone chooses one out of many forms of suicide to end his life, does that mean all other forms are not forms of suicide? Is this a logic and a reasonable way to define what suicide is, or to define any concepts? It's like saying "if overdosing himself with sleeping pills is suicide, why the monks/nuns did not do just that? Therefore overdosing with sleeping pills is not suicide." I guess you can see the problem with your statement. You are trying too hard...

The statement also shows you don't seem to know much about some common practice in Taoism/Buddhism/Qigong. Being able to "坐化" is in large part an ability. It requires many years of vigorous training to achieve that level of ability, not to mention many other factors such as the person's "wu4 xin4", many different practicing methods, master's level etc.. It's like being an engineer/doctor/scientist requires many years of vigorous training. You can not just "find a quick method on the web, then learn it on the fly hoping you can be an engineer/doctor/scientist next day..."

"能不能举个正统基督教徒自杀的例子看看。"

Now I have better understanding why "roaring mouse" has been often calling you "babbling"... Let me ask this question. What does whether or not there are suicide in Christians have anything to do with this discussion which is about your statement "佛教禁止杀生，自然也禁止杀自己。" What's your point? What's the relevancy of asking me to provide examples of suicide among Christians? Am I supposed to provide the examples?

"佛教徒不认为坐化是自杀"

You are trying to be the official spoke-person of the Buddhist community again, yet at the same time you are not even a Buddhist practitioner, and further more, you don't even know much about Buddhism. It's like someone who knows nothing about Christianity, yet at the same he keeps telling you what all Christians think. Don't you find it's a bit ironic?... Have you heard the English saying "speak for yourself"?

"我们知道，如果说坐化是自杀，那么有贬低那些一辈子向善度人的高僧的嫌疑。"

We...? How many people are you representing? Another case of trying to be the spoke-person for rest of us. You seem to have a habit of shoving your own ideas and words into other people's throats and a habit of keeping forgetting that you're only representing yourself. Let me tell you, I for one don't think that suicide is belittling in general. I also remember seeing there were a couple of people having posted comments on CFC not condemning the suicide by the Chinese. Let me give you another example. There are more and more people nowadays both in the west and in the east believing people have the right to end their lives, which has been demonstrated in the discussion about euthanasia and assisted-suicide in the last several decades. Are these people part of your "we..."?

"我们都是要去接受临终的疾病折磨的，算个最后的磨练乐章。"

There you go again. How can you say as if with absolute certainty that ALL of us will have to go though the suffering of the pain caused by diseases at the end of our lives? Don't you think it's possible that many healthy people (who may not be believers of any religion) may die of natural course without the pain of disease you mentioned. Are these people part of your "we all..." too?

Let's cut the chase to save your time, readers' time as well as mine, especially to save your "babbling and beating around bush". How about you tell us your definition of suicide? I have given my yokel definition of suicide in my previous comment which is "it's deliberate means of human intervention to end one's life". When you give your definition, please be explicitly clear whether it's "正话反说?" or "反话正说?" or "正话正说?" or "反话反说?" (Gee, it's confusing for my yokel brain already) since most people I met either on-line or in real life do not seem to talk the way you talk, maybe they are not as sophisticated as you are, or maybe because of some other reasons... It'll be appreciated if you can let us know your definition of suicide...