mimi, CBC也加入对底特律破产的讨论了

大伯刘

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2013-05-28
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Detroit has shown that the promises of politicians don't last 30 years.


Detroit pension meltdown a wake-up call for Canadians

Detroit pensioners woke up last Friday to shattered retirement dreams, and the haunting question that people around the world are now asking themselves is, "What about mine?"
In its bankruptcy filing last week, the city declared its pension and benefit commitments to be part of its debt, leaving a Federal judge to decide how to distribute Detroit's remaining assets between pensioners and other creditors.
From a business point of view it is all quite rational. Over the years, the city government made more promises than it could possibly afford to pay. About $18 billion more.
But there's more happening here than rational business decisions. In bankruptcy, when there just isn't enough money to go around, each of the creditors takes a share of the hit. This time they are expected to get between 10 and 20 cents for every dollar they are owed — and that includes the city's pensioners.People who have worked a lifetime for the city, responsibly choosing a job and sticking with it because they knew it included a safe pension, abruptly have to think again.
They could have taken their skills and commitment elsewhere, taken risks and pursued more adventurous jobs, sailed around the world or lived cheap on the beaches of Goa, or taken a flyer on a career as an actor or novelist. In other words, they could have lived like the grasshopper instead of the ant in the Aesop's Fable — making enough for a roof and entertainment week to week but never setting a penny aside for the long winter ahead.
And eventually relying on social assistance in their old age. As the Wealthy Barber author David Chilton has said, people without a pension generally don't save enough.
But the pension contributors in Detroit weren't the fabled grasshoppers, they were the ants. They were the responsible ones who considered the future and planned ahead so they could pay their own way. They chose jobs with salary agreements that included the promise of a fund for their retirement.
Every month money was taken from their pay. Every month, the paperwork showed that their employer had added its share to the pension pot. Periodically a form would arrive in the mail telling them how much they would get if they continued working until the age of 65. But all the time the paperwork was a lie.
And as I mentioned last week, there is a growing view that the crisis in Detroit may not be unique, that there are more public-sector bankruptcies to come. Others have weighed in on the subject since, some seeming to blame pensioners for the growing potential financial crisis, saying they are taking more than their share.
The point they're missing is that pensions are crucial to a healthy economy.
As everyone keeps telling China, until the country develops a reliable social safety net, a consumer-led society can never take off. Employees must be able to trust their pensions will actually be there when it comes time to draw on them, or their ant-like personalities will force them to hoard even more when they're working, instead of recirculating that cash into the economy.
And safe pensions do exist. The best ones are those that money managers give themselves.
In this type of blue ribbon pension there is no promise to pay on some future day. The money is set aside in a separate account. It is well managed in diversified investments. Its future value, and thus the amount added to the fund each year, is determined by realistic long-term rates of interest. It is not based on a 30-year-old promise by some now-defunct politician and subject to the whims of whoever is calling the political shots today.
Detroit has shown that the promises of politicians don't last 30 years. And neither do the promises of companies.
Canada's own Nortel, the airlines and the Detroit auto makers themselves are just a few of the private firms proving that promises given years ago to inspire loyalty when workers were desperately wanted are worth nothing when the workers are no longer needed.
As the blue-ribbon pensions show, money actually set aside and invested wisely over a 40-year working life provides a reliable retirement income. Stocks really do return 8 per cent over the long term. Bond returns are low now, but many years in the last 40, bonds were paying double-digit rates.
But as with those blue ribbon pensions, the secret is that the money must actually be set aside and invested by honest, qualified professionals. Pension funds that do that, like the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan, or the Canada Pension Plan, provide reliable returns.
Without that, a promise to pay is only as good as the changing fortunes of the organization making the promise.
Pensions backed by promises from governments with relatively low debt, like Canada's, are safe for now. And as CBC's Amber Hildebrandt has reported, in Canada cities are backed by their respective provinces if things go sour.
Other governments and companies are not in such good shape. In the wake of Detroit, employees and unions making deals with healthy governments and private sector employers must learn not to accept promises. They must demand that cash be set aside now, placed in a well-run fund, and managed for the long term.
Either that or the ants might as well join the grasshoppers. Buy a sailboat, and don't come home till you are old and sick and looking for social assistance.
 
“Pensions backed by promises from governments with relatively low debt, like Canada's, are safe for now. And as CBC's Amber Hildebrandt has reported, in Canada cities are backed by their respective provinces if things go sour.”
 
“Pensions backed by promises from governments with relatively low debt, like Canada's, are safe for now. And as CBC's Amber Hildebrandt has reported, in Canada cities are backed by their respective provinces if things go sour.”

That's true. I don't think the Canadian or, in particular, the Ontario, pension system will collapse. But at what costs? More tax hikes on the way and we're getting deeper and deeper into debt.

The keywords in the sentences you quotes are "for now".
 
That's true. I don't think the Canadian or, in particular, the Ontario, pension system will collapse. But at what costs? More tax hikes on the way and we're getting deeper and deeper into debt.

The keywords in the sentences you quotes are "for now".

刘大哥,G8每个经济体都是千疮百孔的,Canada联邦政府是当中最牛的了,欠债很少。当然安省欠债很多也是事实。但还在可控范围。
至于发展中国家最牛的中国,现在的债务问题更是严重,很多中小城市都能欠债千亿人民币,无法及时兑付。
there is no safe place to hide
也许黄金是避险之地,但今年表现就麻麻地。
 
刘大哥,G8每个经济体都是千疮百孔的,Canada联邦政府是当中最牛的了,欠债很少。当然安省欠债很多也是事实。但还在可控范围。
至于发展中国家最牛的中国,现在的债务问题更是严重,很多中小城市都能欠债千亿人民币,无法及时兑付。
there is no safe place to hide
也许黄金是避险之地,但今年表现就麻麻地。

是,欧洲的养老体系可持续性还不如加拿大,我们做好更多交税和更晚退休的准备就好了,但有生之年这个制度应该还不会崩溃。

一直很欣赏mimi老弟对黄金的判断,你认为半年内是否会有中长线买点出现?
 
是,欧洲的养老体系可持续性还不如加拿大,我们做好更多交税和更晚退休的准备就好了,但有生之年这个制度应该还不会崩溃。

一直很欣赏mimi老弟对黄金的判断,你认为半年内是否会有中长线买点出现?

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=gld
gld120以下的连续跳空下跌,然后阳包阴,可能已经预示中期底部的到来。
不过现在价格纠缠于50日线,多空出现平衡,还是很难说。fed的政策也经常变,现在鸽派占上风,谁知道几个月后啥情况,他们都说了看今后几个月的经济数据决定。
个人感觉120以下是今年底部的可能很大
 
老刘,关键是经济要发展,大家退休金都有着落!
随着加州经济强劲复苏,加州州政府税收大幅增加,以前是快破产,现在钱多得不知道怎么花。:D
我同学朋友们住着1千多呎百万小黑屋,交1万多刀地税,政府收钱收得手抽筋!:cool:
 
老刘,关键是经济要发展,大家退休金都有着落!
随着加州经济强劲复苏,加州州政府税收大幅增加,以前是快破产,现在钱多得不知道怎么花。:D
我同学朋友们住着1千多呎百万小黑屋,交1万多刀地税,政府收钱收得手抽筋!:cool:

关键是要看清资本主义的本质, 学会投资, 自己保护自己!
 
是,欧洲的养老体系可持续性还不如加拿大,我们做好更多交税和更晚退休的准备就好了,但有生之年这个制度应该还不会崩溃。

一直很欣赏mimi老弟对黄金的判断,你认为半年内是否会有中长线买点出现?

钱放在RRSP或互为基金上,如果投资表现疲弱,还能放哪里?现在什么投资都喊SOFT LANDING,成本那么高, 有没钱学大户那样投资古董字画, 有什么保本的东西能抗抗通胀。 ???? 晚退休基本是定数了, 加拿大才三千万人, 人口发展趋势老龄化,生产成本高, 这一代人只能靠晚退休自己让活自己
 
钱放在RRSP或互为基金上,如果投资表现疲弱,还能放哪里?现在什么投资都喊SOFT LANDING,成本那么高, 有没钱学大户那样投资古董字画, 有什么保本的东西能抗抗通胀。 ???? 晚退休基本是定数了, 加拿大才三千万人, 人口发展趋势老龄化,生产成本高, 这一代人只能靠晚退休自己让活自己
私企码工们能干到67岁?:D
57就谢天谢地了,50多岁以后必须要转方向,干coding,做板子够呛了。
成功转方向的估计能够到67,如果公司不倒,倒了再换公司会很困难。
 
pension计划坑定也是经过砖家们论证过的。:D
我估计砖家们没想到经济增长会变缓,投资回报会很少,人活得越来越长。现在只好延长退休年龄,其实那个CPP也没多少钱。
但公仆们应该不会受影响,加拿大有资源卖,人民思想左倾,对加税不敏感。:D
 
大陆投资客不顾风险狂买美国物业

2013-07-28 09:46 纽约时报
26e2854613dbe62d4aaa44bf83e1d9ea.jpg

大陆客狂买美物业​

大陆一些炒房者近来蜂拥底特律购房,将之视为花小钱即能实现美国梦的好机会。图为底特律一处废弃的民宅。纽约时报

对很多美国人来说,失业率和犯罪率居高不下的「汽车城」底特律显然不是投资房产的最佳选择。尤其是在该市最近宣布申请破产后。然而,中国投资者却将此视为花小钱即能实现美国梦的好时机。大陆一些炒房者近来纷纷购买到底特律的房产。但是,房地产经纪人士则告诫,这种缺乏对现实的了解的不理智投资行为,其获得回报的机率可能很小。

与中国大陆高昂的房价相比,底特律的房价十分低廉。中国的购房者不理会底特律被评为全美房市投资环境最差的城市这一事实。大陆门户网站新浪财经网报道,在本月18日底特律宣布破产后,热门社交平台新浪微博上掀起一股有关如何花少量的钱就可满足置业梦想的言论。

有人说,「70万人口、环境安逸、空气清洁、低污染的民主社会,你还等什么?」显然,就业率低和全美最高犯罪率对他们来说都可以忽略不计。

密歇根州特洛伊市房产经纪人陈小姐表示,最近接到众多从中国打来的询问购房事宜的电话,一些炒房者甚至说要一次购买100至200个物业。一名最近从她的一位同事处一口气购得30套房产的买家声称,他们不需要实地看房,只要挑那些看上去好的买就行。

近期刚在北京组织了一次房地产交易会的魏先生则表示,这些买家并非仅仅纸上谈兵,而是已经付诸行动,成交物业数据的稳步上升就是一个证明。魏先生说,的确有一些买家将赌注押在美国经济复甦的希望上,争相购入底特律的房产。他们认为经济大环境好转后,必将推动汽车工业的振兴。而事实上,美国汽车工业的重头部分早已撤离底特律,分散至其他城市。

大陆投资者的这股底特律购房热似乎也引起中国外交部的重视。外交部告诫国民投资底市存在风险,并指出投资人未将一些潜在的开支考虑在内。大陆房产经纪人原计划在春末到底特律地区实地考察,但最终由于签证问题未能成行。

陈小姐透露,很多大陆买家认为房产是肯定会升值的投资,因而未经查看现房就入手。陈小姐称,这种投资行为就好比买乐透彩,除非吉星高照,否则收益的机会是微乎其微。

陈小姐说,一些投资者常常未事先接洽就贸然飞到底特律。每次他们从机场打电话给她时,她总是建议他们坐出租车到市中心地区去逛一番。结果,大部分人就此销声匿迹,再也不会联络她。因为当他们亲眼目睹了底特律的破败景象后就自动放弃。
 
大陆投资客不顾风险狂买美国物业
2013-07-28 09:46 纽约时报

26e2854613dbe62d4aaa44bf83e1d9ea.jpg
大陆客狂买美物业


大陆一些炒房者近来蜂拥底特律购房,将之视为花小钱即能实现美国梦的好机会。图为底特律一处废弃的民宅。纽约时报

对很多美国人来说,失业率和犯罪率居高不下的「汽车城」底特律显然不是投资房产的最佳选择。尤其是在该市最近宣布申请破产后。然而,中国投资者却将此视为花小钱即能实现美国梦的好时机。大陆一些炒房者近来纷纷购买到底特律的房产。但是,房地产经纪人士则告诫,这种缺乏对现实的了解的不理智投资行为,其获得回报的机率可能很小。

与中国大陆高昂的房价相比,底特律的房价十分低廉。中国的购房者不理会底特律被评为全美房市投资环境最差的城市这一事实。大陆门户网站新浪财经网报道,在本月18日底特律宣布破产后,热门社交平台新浪微博上掀起一股有关如何花少量的钱就可满足置业梦想的言论。

有人说,「70万人口、环境安逸、空气清洁、低污染的民主社会,你还等什么?」显然,就业率低和全美最高犯罪率对他们来说都可以忽略不计。

密歇根州特洛伊市房产经纪人陈小姐表示,最近接到众多从中国打来的询问购房事宜的电话,一些炒房者甚至说要一次购买100至200个物业。一名最近从她的一位同事处一口气购得30套房产的买家声称,他们不需要实地看房,只要挑那些看上去好的买就行。

近期刚在北京组织了一次房地产交易会的魏先生则表示,这些买家并非仅仅纸上谈兵,而是已经付诸行动,成交物业数据的稳步上升就是一个证明。魏先生说,的确有一些买家将赌注押在美国经济复甦的希望上,争相购入底特律的房产。他们认为经济大环境好转后,必将推动汽车工业的振兴。而事实上,美国汽车工业的重头部分早已撤离底特律,分散至其他城市。

大陆投资者的这股底特律购房热似乎也引起中国外交部的重视。外交部告诫国民投资底市存在风险,并指出投资人未将一些潜在的开支考虑在内。大陆房产经纪人原计划在春末到底特律地区实地考察,但最终由于签证问题未能成行。

陈小姐透露,很多大陆买家认为房产是肯定会升值的投资,因而未经查看现房就入手。陈小姐称,这种投资行为就好比买乐透彩,除非吉星高照,否则收益的机会是微乎其微。

陈小姐说,一些投资者常常未事先接洽就贸然飞到底特律。每次他们从机场打电话给她时,她总是建议他们坐出租车到市中心地区去逛一番。结果,大部分人就此销声匿迹,再也不会联络她。因为当他们亲眼目睹了底特律的破败景象后就自动放弃。


:dx:
 
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