泽连斯基竟然敢大幅改动老大拟定的协议

[welcomelm]

Ukraine makes significant changes to US ‘peace plan’, sources say

Some of Russia’s maximalist demands have been removed from original 28-point proposal, it is understood

www.theguardian.com

 

[RareEarth]

不止损，以后亏更多。 国之将亡，必出妖孽。

 

[Teddy]

这个有点过了，下次白宫见面可能被闪耳光的

 

[metropolis]

《金融时报》援引一位代表——乌克兰副外长谢尔盖·基斯利察的话称，一份新的19点计划与最初的草案“几乎没有区别”。​

又或许，这几天的疯狂外交努力最终只是让一切回到了原点。​

“俄罗斯的立场是，‘我们已经提出了要求，你们接受还是不接受？’”斯塔诺瓦娅说，“‘如果接受，我们就停止战争；如果不接受，我们就等着你们准备好。’”​

​

Updated peace plan could be a deal Ukraine will take - eventually​

52 minutes ago

Sarah RainsfordSouthern and Eastern Europe correspondent , Geneva

Reuters
Andriy Yermak (left), heading negotiating talks for Ukraine, with US Secretary of State Marco Rubio in Geneva on Sunday

Donald Trump wants a peace deal in Ukraine very badly.

Kyiv wants peace even more, just not at any cost.

That's why when the US began pushing it to agree to a deal by Thanksgiving on what looked close to surrender terms, Ukraine pushed back.

It scrambled senior officials to talks in Geneva and all of Sunday we saw delegates from the US and Ukraine shuttling back and forth between the two main venues in black limousines with darkened windows.

They were joined by national security advisers from Germany, France and the UK.

The only time I glimpsed Andriy Yermak, heading the negotiating team from Kyiv, he looked stony-faced.

No wonder: the starting proposal on the table was so skewed towards Russia's demands, the talks began with the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio having to deny it had been written by the Kremlin.

But Donald Trump had been clear that Ukraine needed to sign up fast or face unspecified consequences. So Kyiv had to engage.

On Sunday night, Marco Rubio declared there'd been "tremendous progress" in the talks with just a "couple of things" still outstanding. When pressed, he wouldn't be more specific, calling the situation "delicate".

But a joint Ukraine-US statement says there's now a whole new deal in play, which it calls an "updated and revised framework document".

We haven't seen that yet. The Financial Times newspaper quotes one of the delegates, though - Ukraine's deputy foreign minister Sergiy Kyslytsya - who talks of a new 19-point plan with "very little left" from the original draft.

Zelensky warns against giving away territory as latest Ukraine talks end​

What we know about leaked US draft plan to end Russia's Ukraine war​

That new document likely incorporates at least some of the amendments proposed by the Europeans and published by Reuters news agency that point to something far more palatable for Kyiv.

In that version, an automatic veto on future Ukrainian Nato membership is gone - as well as a cap on troop numbers for the country's armed forces.

It says no Western troops would be deployed to Ukraine permanently, but that's not an all-out ban.

On the sensitive question of territory – land Ukrainian soldiers have been fighting and dying to defend for 11 years – there would be no handover of the rest of the Donbas region to Russia for free, and Ukraine would aim to recover occupied areas through exclusively diplomatic means. That's something Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky previously accepted.

The full amnesty for war crimes is deleted, too.

But most critically, there's reference to security guarantees.

Several officials, including the British Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer, have talked about Ukraine getting Article 5-style protection, meaning the US would be bound to come to its defence if Russia ever invaded again.

That's the key issue which Ukraine says it can't negotiate on.

We don't know how many of these European ideas have made it into the new proposal, but Germany's Chancellor Friedrich Merz calls the deal "significantly modified" – in a positive sense.

So how did we get from a pro-Russian deal to this in just a day? It's hard to be sure, with US hawks like President Trump's envoy Steve Witkoff in the room.

The initial Kremlin-friendly plan was rooted in Witkoff's own visit to Russian President Vladimir Putin this spring, when he returned quoting Russia's controversial narratives almost verbatim.

Instead, this plan seems like something Ukraine might sign up to – eventually.

Which must be why Trump has gone from berating officials in Kyiv, again, for supposedly showing him "zero gratitude", to proclaiming that "something good" may be coming.

But how good? There is still no sign that Russia is ready to give up fighting unless it's forced to.

"Putin is much more self-confident militarily, right now," Tatiana Stanovaya of the Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center believes.

She points to a corruption scandal and political crisis in Kyiv, problems mobilising soldiers there, and military gains for Russian forces on the ground – all driving Putin's thinking.

At best, some suggest Trump's demand for a deal has injected new momentum into efforts to find peace, which Ukrainians, under fire, desperately want.

Or perhaps the days of frantic diplomacy have only left everything back where it started.

"Russia's position is, 'we have laid out our demands, so do you take them or not?' Stanovaya said. "'If so, we will stop the war – if not, we'll just wait until you're ready.'"

Updated peace plan could be a deal Ukraine will take - eventually

The proposed plan is said to have been significantly changed since Sunday - but key sticking points are likely to remain.

www.bbc.com

 

[ASSISTANT]

俄乌停战那天，就是中俄翻脸之时。接着打对中方绝对有利。但司机坚持不了多久了

 

[Online-inperson]

《金融时报》援引一位代表——乌克兰副外长谢尔盖·基斯利察的话称，一份新的19点计划与最初的草案“几乎没有区别”。​

又或许，这几天的疯狂外交努力最终只是让一切回到了原点。​

“俄罗斯的立场是，‘我们已经提出了要求，你们接受还是不接受？’”斯塔诺瓦娅说，“‘如果接受，我们就停止战争；如果不接受，我们就等着你们准备好。’”​

​

Updated peace plan could be a deal Ukraine will take - eventually​

52 minutes ago

Sarah RainsfordSouthern and Eastern Europe correspondent , Geneva

Reuters
Andriy Yermak (left), heading negotiating talks for Ukraine, with US Secretary of State Marco Rubio in Geneva on Sunday

Donald Trump wants a peace deal in Ukraine very badly.

Kyiv wants peace even more, just not at any cost.

That's why when the US began pushing it to agree to a deal by Thanksgiving on what looked close to surrender terms, Ukraine pushed back.

It scrambled senior officials to talks in Geneva and all of Sunday we saw delegates from the US and Ukraine shuttling back and forth between the two main venues in black limousines with darkened windows.

They were joined by national security advisers from Germany, France and the UK.

The only time I glimpsed Andriy Yermak, heading the negotiating team from Kyiv, he looked stony-faced.

No wonder: the starting proposal on the table was so skewed towards Russia's demands, the talks began with the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio having to deny it had been written by the Kremlin.

But Donald Trump had been clear that Ukraine needed to sign up fast or face unspecified consequences. So Kyiv had to engage.

On Sunday night, Marco Rubio declared there'd been "tremendous progress" in the talks with just a "couple of things" still outstanding. When pressed, he wouldn't be more specific, calling the situation "delicate".

But a joint Ukraine-US statement says there's now a whole new deal in play, which it calls an "updated and revised framework document".

We haven't seen that yet. The Financial Times newspaper quotes one of the delegates, though - Ukraine's deputy foreign minister Sergiy Kyslytsya - who talks of a new 19-point plan with "very little left" from the original draft.

Zelensky warns against giving away territory as latest Ukraine talks end​

What we know about leaked US draft plan to end Russia's Ukraine war​

That new document likely incorporates at least some of the amendments proposed by the Europeans and published by Reuters news agency that point to something far more palatable for Kyiv.

In that version, an automatic veto on future Ukrainian Nato membership is gone - as well as a cap on troop numbers for the country's armed forces.

It says no Western troops would be deployed to Ukraine permanently, but that's not an all-out ban.

On the sensitive question of territory – land Ukrainian soldiers have been fighting and dying to defend for 11 years – there would be no handover of the rest of the Donbas region to Russia for free, and Ukraine would aim to recover occupied areas through exclusively diplomatic means. That's something Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky previously accepted.

The full amnesty for war crimes is deleted, too.

But most critically, there's reference to security guarantees.

Several officials, including the British Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer, have talked about Ukraine getting Article 5-style protection, meaning the US would be bound to come to its defence if Russia ever invaded again.

That's the key issue which Ukraine says it can't negotiate on.

We don't know how many of these European ideas have made it into the new proposal, but Germany's Chancellor Friedrich Merz calls the deal "significantly modified" – in a positive sense.

So how did we get from a pro-Russian deal to this in just a day? It's hard to be sure, with US hawks like President Trump's envoy Steve Witkoff in the room.

The initial Kremlin-friendly plan was rooted in Witkoff's own visit to Russian President Vladimir Putin this spring, when he returned quoting Russia's controversial narratives almost verbatim.

Instead, this plan seems like something Ukraine might sign up to – eventually.

Which must be why Trump has gone from berating officials in Kyiv, again, for supposedly showing him "zero gratitude", to proclaiming that "something good" may be coming.

But how good? There is still no sign that Russia is ready to give up fighting unless it's forced to.

"Putin is much more self-confident militarily, right now," Tatiana Stanovaya of the Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center believes.

She points to a corruption scandal and political crisis in Kyiv, problems mobilising soldiers there, and military gains for Russian forces on the ground – all driving Putin's thinking.

At best, some suggest Trump's demand for a deal has injected new momentum into efforts to find peace, which Ukrainians, under fire, desperately want.

Or perhaps the days of frantic diplomacy have only left everything back where it started.

"Russia's position is, 'we have laid out our demands, so do you take them or not?' Stanovaya said. "'If so, we will stop the war – if not, we'll just wait until you're ready.'"

Updated peace plan could be a deal Ukraine will take - eventually

The proposed plan is said to have been significantly changed since Sunday - but key sticking points are likely to remain.

www.bbc.com

靠来求去，最终还是得靠乌克兰自己

 

[阿土仔]

俄乌停战那天，就是中俄翻脸之时。接着打对中方绝对有利。但司机坚持不了多久了

我有个好主意：中国给乌克兰点导弹！打丫狗日的鹅毛……

 

[ASSISTANT]

我有个好主意：中国给乌克兰点导弹！打丫狗日的鹅毛……

现在到了既不合适也不合适的地步。历史上俄国说的，中国基本配合

 

[Jay Wang]

祈祷世界和平啊，鳖打打杀杀的！

 

[metropolis]

美国和俄国搞了个28条，乌克兰和欧洲无法接受。

接着乌克兰和卢比奥在日内瓦搞出个19条，理想虽丰满，现实很骨干，基辅停水停电还有爆炸声。

有人评论，大难临头，没人在乎小国的命运，各大集团坐地分赃。