精华 The Incredibles本周五上映!

[oread]

I came here several times last night waiting for your comments. It's quite insightful. 外行看热闹，内行看门道.

I wasn't really expecting a Miyazaki anime (now that I know this term is solely used for Japanese animation :blowzy: ), but I anticipated something similar but better than Finding Nemo. I guess it was the central theme of The Incredibles (an action thriller) that disappointed me the most, even with the added warmth of a loving family, I felt very distant from the characters, and that I couldn't really relate to them. Perhaps because they were the "superheroes", so it was more like just a movie to me. Funny that you mentioned 007, that's exactly what I thought, walking out of the cinema: oh God, another 007! You know what I mean? The characters are so far away from our ordinary lives that I couldn't find anything in common with them. I couldn't make myself walking in these characters' shoes. Even in Finding Nemo, I felt that I could understand the characters in many instances, e.g. Marlin's disappointment and anxiety when he was trapped inside that big whale. In short, The Incredibles didn't move me as much. I don't know, perhaps my expectation of Pixar exceeds their reputation. It's unfair, but I wouldn't expect anything less from Pixar, these guys are incredible!

I believe Edna, the fashion designer, was based on a real actress, I've seen her in other movies.

 

[浪客TANXIN]

哈～我有个pixar那样的台灯的说～

 

[oread]

The master critic aka Roger Ebert said it all:

"If it's not quite as magical as "Nemo," how many movies are? That may be because it's about human beings who have some connection, however tenuous, with reality; it loses the fantastical freedom of the fish fable."

Oh I just learned that Bird was the voice behind Edna. Hahahahahaha...the do not use cape speech was brilliant! Now I really want to see his movie "The Iron Giant" le.

 

[wuwei]

谢谢渐渐的捧场，我昨天上班时就看到你的贴了， 你知道我的英文有限，所以只好等到下班回家码字，而我们刚好开始一个新剧，拖到9点半才回到家，所以回的有点晚。不过别说内行外行的了，恐怕你看的东西比我多得多。

以前在学校时我是同学中少数几个非“星球大战”迷之一，所以你说的我明白。鸟先生是很擅长美国人的故事的，从他做过“辛普深一家”多年的经历就可以知道了，我们有个老师叫Kai Pindal早在2战就画动画了，他说只是到有“辛普深一家”人们才知道画动画是门正当职业，可见“辛普深一家”的影响力。

The Incredibles 我可能要得看好几次才能评，就现在只看一次来说我到喜欢看从英雄到作为普通人生活的戏分多一点，对我来说那更有趣，但是这样可能别的观众又不耐烦了，这片子已经超过2小时了好象，在动画片种算是长的了。
说到鸟先生佩的音，另外有意思的是那个老板的是jeffery katzenberg的caricature，最后片尾两个老头说“old school" 是迪斯尼的nine old men 中的Ollie Johnston 和Frank Thomas ，他们写的The Illusion of Life可以说是动画师的圣经，把他们放在片尾是很有意义的，因为这几年传统动画经历从未有过的低潮，3维动画虽然突飞猛进，但总让人觉得缺少传统动画里面的一些东西，The Incredibles是目前为止最具有old school的精髓的3维动画片了，在最后的credit里也有一行感谢Ollie Johnston 和Frank Thomas 。

看样子渐渐你喜欢nemo多一点，我有个老师在网上写过篇文章说nemo，题目是"good studios, bad film"和呵，做学生时我跟她谈不拢的，同学里有人觉得跟她学到东西，有人跟我一样，我真希望能明白她说的，可惜我现在还不明白。最后那年我花了一个假期想的故事跟她才说几分钟她就把我弄得没情绪作下去了，不过现在那个股市在我脑里发哮的差不多了。

我赌你会喜欢"The Iron Giant"的。

 

[wuwei]

最初由 渐渐 发布


I believe Edna, the fashion designer, was based on a real actress, I've seen her in other movies.

can you please find out her name for me?

 

[oread]

So Ellen Besen is your teacher? I googled and read her article, that's exactly my feeling towards The Incredibles: great technology, but somewhat disappointing storyline. And I agree with her, storyline is the key that holds the animation together, not a showcase of the newest technology; the technology should be used as means to send out a clear message to audience: the story, not the other way around, in her words "don't let the tail wag the dog". Technology enhances storytelling, no question about that. "This harnessing of all the elements towards effective, theme-based communication is the key principle of a uniquely animated style of communication called integrated storytelling."

However I diagree with her view on Nemo's storyline: she viewed the movie's theme as a somewhat unclear instrinsic relationship between "fish and men"; but I think that Nemo is about believing yourself and the undeniable, unconditional love of a father. This theme, which is pretty clear to me, along with the realistic setting of the colorful ocean and fish, produced an exciting and heart-warming story.

I believe that her overwhelming expectation of Pixar clouded her judgement on Finding Nemo.

BTW, I googled and the actress I referred to is Linda Hunt, but it seems that Edna is actualy a mixture of Linda Hunt and Edith Head.

Linda Hunt

Edith Head

Edna Mode

 

[oread]

Do you mind to share your story here?

 

[Melody]

我朋友说不怎么好看，我在犹豫啊

 

[oread]

Speaking of 内行外行, I think it does make a difference. For a 内行 like wuwei, he can fully appreciate every single detail and the amount of works that went into creating each of these details, hence he's more likely to be overwhelmed by the technology and just loses sight of the whole story. On the other hand, for a 外行 like myself, ok I'm impressed with the special effects, but because of my limited knowledge on animation, my attention is on the plot and the characters, so I'm much more likely to see the movie as a whole as compared to wuwei who's just clapping and pulling his hair over the wonders of technology and creativity.

 

[wuwei]

谢谢渐渐，我这就去买2张Linda Hunt和Edith Head得片子来看看。
是的Ellen Besen是我毕业作品是的指导老师，不过我后来基本没有跟她谈我的东西，到最后做出来她还是给于肯定的，可能是我开头跟她讲我原来的故事时自己也还比较模糊，她一提出些问题自己回答不了就影响自己做下去的感觉，因为自己还没有成熟到可以支持自己的想法，然后又从头另想，这很容易掉进一个无底洞，很多人就这样不能按时完成最后不能毕业。记得我那个后来进pixar的同学在我已经动手作动画时重新换新故事，结果她是最后几天没睡觉才完成的，我记得那时她脸色发紫。

我想你说的“内行”用来说Ellen Besen比较合适，她可能用故事结构那一套去分析nemo了吧。有时很容易这样，我在国内的一个动画网站和他们谈角色动画，在这边谈角色动画肯定就谈表演咯，可你猜会有什么问题让人沟通不下去？有位行家跑出来说动画没有表演电影没有表演，只有“搬演”或者“再现”，然后道理一大堆来证明全世界是错的现在应该拨乱反正。我不想去写论文什么的，也愿意妥协，可是如果让我说“迪尼路的“搬演”或者“再现”很棒”那也太别扭啦吧。

The Incredibles不是你喜欢的那一类故事，我猜想你可能不是很习惯美国连环画的文化，这个故事在我看来跟我们乡下其实时一样的，我可以这样翻译过来：有位美丽女知青，唱样板戏唱得很好，受到贫下中农的喜爱。
其中有个放牛娃崇拜她崇拜得最疯狂，有次在半路求爱，被美丽女知青骂了一句神经病。。。。十几年后，美丽女知青因为四人帮倒台也回到农村作农妇嫁人，放牛娃几经奋斗程了乡里的第一个万元户，还花钱买了个乡长当，他迷信他手中的钱和权，目标就是报当年求爱不成还受辱之仇，最后后他绑架女知青。。。。。。和和，我这个译本土一点。但事实上真的常有这样的事情发生，由爱生狠，或者无意得罪了别人，N年后受到处心积虑的报复自己还不知为什么。

story story story,人人都谈story,可是我们理解世界都有自己的角度，说它好也说它故事好，说它不好也是说故事不好。所以我多数是只看不评，除非我觉得倒胃口。但是我可以说的是我对technology不感兴趣，我推崇这个片子不是因为它的技术方面，基本上我说的是它的角色设计，动画和art direction方面，论复杂程度shrek 2里的角色rigging可能还复杂一点。但是就象中国书法上讲的，瘦可见肉，胖可见骨。玩摄影的人为什么不用傻瓜机，因为他们要用景深消除“不必要的细节”。

我不介意有机会跟你说我的故事，不过就不在这里说了我还没注册版权呢，倒不是什么不得了的有“获奖”机会的东西，只是我得留给我下岗时有点事做，pixar的获奖短篇for the birds据说原来的idea就是我们一个校友的学生作品，当年他寄去求职还没求到，最后连创意的名分都不给他。

 

[wuwei]

The Incredibles是以The Incredibles一家人的角度去讲的故事，和The Iron Giant相比反映鸟先生和一些美国人心理上的变化，The Iron Giant是反战的，The Incredibles就有为美国辩护的味道，The Incredibles一家就是美国。我不想引入这个角度去看电影，好像又回到阶级斗争为刚一样的。但是有周围世界的变化说故事人才有话要说，宫大师的想象力也是原子弹炸出来的，因为他们国家有过那样的经历，才会有宫对世界有哪个角度的关注。

 

[oread]

You are right, I don't follow the comics, except Garfield I'm also never really impressed by superhero stories in general.

The other thing that kind of threw me off track is that this movie seemed to intend to tell something other than a superhero's story: family value, fitting in, believing oneself...I'm not sure what, but it didn't quite convey that message, my feeling only. It's a little bit like Spielberg's "A.I.Artificial Intelligence", I could feel that the director was trying to tell us something, but just not quite there yet. I kept wondering what if the AI movie was a pure Kubrick, rather than a hybrid from Spielberg.

I often find myself enjoying more "pure" movies: by pure I mean it's either a real masterpiece or something just flat-out stupid but gives me a good chuckle, like Scary Movie. Movies that are half-@ssed (excuse the languge,and certainly not referring to The Incredibles) just kind of, oh I don't know, blah.

 

[wuwei]

嗯。。。。。。如果我就“嗯”一声当作回贴渐渐你是不是觉得没劲呢？ 嗬嗬。

不过我不想说The Incredibles了，你说参进的那些东西更认证了我说的是美国人角度讲的故事。我对好片子的标准是能让我看下去不觉得闷，里边没有什么元素让我觉得倒胃口就行了，乡下人嘛，一般都是比较打得粗一点的，红薯芋头大口吃，5花扣肉也大口吃，不象小马格他们上海人讲究精细，所以过去作学生时别人常常争个面红耳赤，我这ESL只管大口吃肉。

不过既然看你喜欢nemo 多过The Incredibles，那我来钻牛角尖一下，nemo主角应该是谁的呢？应该是nemo它爹吧？那它的问题是什么？是对周围世界的恐惧吧？因为这恐惧引起它对nemo的过度保护，它有战胜自己的恐惧吗？是怎么战胜的？nemo是它救的吗？没有，nemo是在别的鱼的帮助下侥幸检回一条命。。。。。这样的结局比较合理的应该是它更坚持nemo 应该听它的，这次幸运能回来下次就没那么好彩了，nemo 呢更坚持自己能独闯世界，没有老爸我也能行。所以说nemo情节是勉强拼起来的。

不过谁在乎？我是不在乎，反正我看的津津有味，我甚至不在乎主角不主角，当我离开电影院时我跟本不想nemo父子，我记得的是dory，和mine mine mine mine那群海鸥----我一直想知道是谁想出的这个gag。
就象matrix 3，那场fight scene足足半个小时，能让我看得下去也真的难得，你想想纯吃大半碗扣肉不好吃能吃的下去吗？

但是一部“real masterpiece“能让那样纯打半个小时吗？

说"pure" movies，许安华监制严浩导演的“天国逆子”我认为就是难得的一部杰作，但是听到有人谈过这片子吗？有谁就请严浩去好莱坞导演吗？我们现在谈的好莱坞“大片”，有几部“大片”能够是“pure" movies？

今天的“电影”跟传统的“电影”已经不同了，人们难得上一回电影院，干嘛掏钱去看一场跟在家看dvd效果没
多大区别的片子？

如果做出来的东西没人看，那还不如我在这灌水有影响力，起码除了你我，应该还有200人次点击这话题。

 

[wuwei]

主坛那个“苦难群体”里也有个“电影”，我看到渐渐你又在那里回贴，不想在那里和人争论，不过我有我的想法。
是的里边有些很惨的灾难画面，但是有些只不过是一般百姓的日常生活，干吗把他们放在一起？因为剪辑的人觉得在风雨中拖儿带女就是苦难？盲人结队过街就是灾难？贫穷不是苦难！

里边的生活好多情形我有些都经历过，我父母就用自行车把我和我姐在风雨中从这村拉到那村，那时我妈妈还怀者我妹妹，除了我们还有行李，要知道那时3，4月份农村的小道在风雨中别说骑单车，就是空手走路也困难。有多少个西风雨的晚上瓦屋顶漏，一家人在一把雨伞下过一晚。
但是我不觉得我可怜，这是我生活的一部分，因为这些经历，我想起我的家永远有说不出的温暖。我不觉得我的童年比别人少了什么，不管比今天的还是昨天的，城里的还是国外的。如果我有小孩，可能的话我宁愿让他抓泥鳅爬树掏鸟蛋，而不是整天在家玩电子游戏。

我不怀疑人们看这些“苦难生活”是的同情心，但是我怀疑这同情心的里面同时参杂者优越感，这种优越感将人把自己放到救世主的地位。是的你每月少吃一局就可以让一个小孩有很多别的机会，可是你有没有想过这同时给更多的穷人无力感，本来他们生活得好好的，现在看到自己一年的辛苦还不如别人少吃一局。这些“同情”和“关注”在让他们相信他们生活在苦难中。但是真正的苦难不是物质的贫缺，是心里觉得没有出路。

不是说不能帮助人，但是我们得想清楚，上帝是公平的。

 

[oread]

Don't you bring the Matrix into this! The Matrix is a brilliantly made masterpiece!