一个民主国家...

[一把手]

最初由 roaring mouse 发布


I cannot agree with you on this.
What is the difference between 自愿报名当兵和拉壮丁?
Look at the US volunteer army. They are volunteers, your so-called 自愿报名当兵. A fairly large percentage of them do so out of economic reasons. If they are rich kids, do they have to do that?

自愿是因为当兵对他们来说是种职业，他们选择当兵是觉得相比作服务员，待遇更好。他们可以选择不当兵。就象是有两个job offers, 一个pay的高，但辛苦危险，另一个pay的低，但轻松舒服。选哪个是你的权利。

回到主题，选举权就是这种权力。你可以不选，也可以选。而不是没有选择的接受政府自己决定的政府。

 

[一把手]

最初由 roaring mouse 发布


那谁来决定“how well and to what degree people are represented in a representative goverment”？

The representatives.

The best representives of all people are the people themselves.

你掉进自己的坑里了。

最初由 roaring mouse 发布

当年皇帝靠武力打下江山后自称是天的代表，谁决定他是天的代表的？

他自己?

No, not himself. It is the people behind him.

They are called "officials", part of the government.

 

[contractor]

最初由 roaring mouse 发布


if i can understand that way, vote or no vote does not matter and your question become irrelevant. What matters most is how well and to what degree people are represented in a representative goverment.

那末我换一种方式问：有没有比公民投票更能“how well and to what degree people are represented in a representative goverment”的办法。

 

[roaring mouse]

最初由 msft 发布


自愿是因为当兵对他们来说是种职业，他们选择当兵是觉得相比作服务员，待遇更好。他们可以选择不当兵。就象是有两个job offers, 一个pay的高，但辛苦危险，另一个pay的低，但轻松舒服。选哪个是你的权利。

回到主题，选举权就是这种权力。你可以不选，也可以选。而不是没有选择的接受政府自己决定的政府。

自愿是因为当兵对他们来说是种职业，他们选择当兵是觉得相比作服务员，待遇更好。他们可以选择不当兵。就象是有两个job offers, 一个pay的高，但辛苦危险，另一个pay的低，但轻松舒服。选哪个是你的权利。

There are jobs that are 轻松舒服 but pay的高. These poor folks do not have that kind of choice. In a sense, some are forced volunteers.

回到主题，选举权就是这种权力。你可以不选，也可以选。而不是没有选择的接受政府自己决定的政府。

If they 可以不选, do they care?

而不是没有选择的接受政府自己决定的政府。

Nobody forces a goverment on you. A goverment is a choice of its people.

 

[roaring mouse]

最初由 contractor 发布


那末我换一种方式问：有没有比公民投票更能“how well and to what degree people are represented in a representative goverment”的办法。

they are two different things:

how to choose a goverment

and

how to run a government


which one you ask?

 

[roaring mouse]

最初由 msft 发布


The best representives of all people are the people themselves.

你掉进自己的坑里了。



They are called "officials", part of the government.

The best representives of all people are the people themselves.

If you say that, then it is not `representative government.' Do you think it is possible to hold 10,000,000 people in a big hall to govern? People give up part of their freedom and their chance of direct governing when a representative government is formed.


你掉进自己的坑里了。

I would not mind as long as it is 自己的坑. At least I know what is there.

 

[roaring mouse]

最初由 msft 发布



They are called "officials", part of the government.

the people behind the emperor include your so-called officials and also your so-caled true people

 

[一把手]

最初由 roaring mouse 发布


自愿是因为当兵对他们来说是种职业，他们选择当兵是觉得相比作服务员，待遇更好。他们可以选择不当兵。就象是有两个job offers, 一个pay的高，但辛苦危险，另一个pay的低，但轻松舒服。选哪个是你的权利。

There are jobs that are 轻松舒服 but pay的高. These poor folks do not have that kind of choice. In a sense, some are forced volunteers.

请问你怎么知道他们“do not have that kind of choice”？ 你现在念书或工作，我们是不是也可以假设你也是forced?

最初由 roaring mouse 发布

回到主题，选举权就是这种权力。你可以不选，也可以选。而不是没有选择的接受政府自己决定的政府。

If they 可以不选, do they care?

而不是没有选择的接受政府自己决定的政府。

Nobody forces a goverment on you. A goverment is a choice of its people.

Wrong. The Chinese government forces a government (他们自己）on Chinese people.
这个以及前任政府是由通过战争上台的军事政府指定的。

 

[一把手]

最初由 roaring mouse 发布


the people behind the emperor include your so-called officials and also your so-caled true people

这样看来你觉得君主制度代表了全体人民？

难怪你为这个党国政府唱赞歌。

 

[二大爷]

如果一个国家各种条件既算不上非常有利，也算不上非常不利，民主就必然带有偶然性......

 

[roaring mouse]

最初由 msft 发布


请问你怎么知道他们“do not have that kind of choice”？ 你现在念书或工作，我们是不是也可以假设你也是forced?




Wrong. The Chinese government forces a government (他们自己）on Chinese people.
这个以及前任政府是由通过战争上台的军事政府指定的。

请问你怎么知道他们“do not have that kind of choice”？ 你现在念书或工作，我们是不是也可以假设你也是forced?

This question, I won't bother to answer. You can find accounts of how these kid choose to be soldiers.


The Chinese government forces a government (他们自己）on Chinese people.

I am glad you finally got there and showed your viewpoints. Goverment is a choice of its people either by ballots or bullets. It is true the chinese goverment got its power through a civil war. do you think they can win a war without the support of the people? if people chose to support them, is that not a choice?

 

[contractor]

最初由 roaring mouse 发布


they are two different things:

how to choose a goverment

and

how to run a government


which one you ask?

还是那个问题，有没有比公民投票产生政府更好的产生政府的方法，即使公民投票有这样那样的不足和缺点。你总不至于在２１世纪的今天，仍然认为武力夺权更代表民意吧？

同时，有没有比公民投票更能保证政府运作时，更“how well and to what degree people are represented in a representative goverment”的方法？



不要绕弯子，清直接回答。

 

[roaring mouse]

最初由 msft 发布


这样看来你觉得君主制度代表了全体人民？

难怪你为这个党国政府唱赞歌。

这样看来你觉得君主制度代表了全体人民？

why not? how about UK? how about Nepal?

难怪你为这个党国政府唱赞歌。

I do not sing very well. For me, every goverment in every country is a choice of its people. If people do not like their government, they can change it.

By the way, what is wrong with 这个党国政府? do you hold a passport from 这个党国政府? make sure before you throw away the passport from 这个党国政府, you get one from another 党国政府.

 

[roaring mouse]

最初由 contractor 发布


还是那个问题，有没有比公民投票产生政府更好的产生政府的方法，即使公民投票有这样那样的不足和缺点。你总不至于在２１世纪的今天，仍然认为武力夺权更代表民意吧？

同时，有没有比公民投票更能保证政府运作时，更“how well and to what degree people are represented in a representative goverment”的方法？



不要绕弯子，清直接回答。

还是那个问题，有没有比公民投票产生政府更好的产生政府的方法，即使公民投票有这样那样的不足和缺点。

Yes, there is. Just like winning a war without a war.

你总不至于在２１世纪的今天，仍然认为武力夺权更代表民意吧？

It depends on the people. If the people in a country choose their government that way, so be it. I have no problem with it. Just like the chinese people choose to live with its government, so be it. I have no problem with it.

 

[contractor]

最初由 roaring mouse 发布

I am glad you finally got there and showed your viewpoints. Goverment is a choice of its people either by ballots or bullets. It is true the chinese goverment got its power through a civil war. do you think they can win a war without the support of the people? if people chose to support them, is that not a choice?

暴力夺权并不一定代表民意, 同时，在共产党通过暴力夺权之后，剥夺了人民再次选择的权利，包括使用暴力再次选择的权利。

你在否定了公民投票表达民意的时候，实际是鼓励人们在２１世纪的今天，通过暴力表达民意。

这恐怕是左右两边都不愿看到的民意表达方式。