需要花5个小时来读完西人M.A.Jones在PBS上关于西藏问题的精彩辩论:
PBS Discussions :: View topic - In response to Tony Martin (in relation to the Tibet issue)
PBS Discussions :: View topic - In response to Tony Martin (in relation to the Tibet issue)
M.A.Jones 关于西藏问题最长的辩论
- 主题发起人 jianada
- 开始时间
摘录M.A.Jones一些扼要观点:
1. Human rights abuses have and continue to occur in Tibet, but the extent of these abuses has been and continues to be greatly exaggerated by the Tibetan Government in Exile and by its Western supporters in the so-called "pro-Tibet lobby".
2. The human rights conditions and overall living standards of the majority of Tibetans has been and continues to improve under Chinese rule, and this has been the case since the Deng reforms were first introduced.
3. Most ill-feelings towards the Han Chinese and towards Chinese rule reflect the collective memory of the Cultural Revolution experience. The strength of these feelings is now beginning to fade as more and more Tibetans are drawn into the middle class, and their lives made more comfortable. Tibetans are thus becoming increasingly divided on their attitudes towards Chinese rule, and their feelings more complex and open to flux.
4. Tibetan culture is not, contrary to the propaganda of the pro-Tibet lobby, in any danger of disappearing. Quite the opposite in fact - Tibet, over the past few decades, has been and continues to experience a cultural renaissance, spurred on partly by financial grants and encouragement from Beijing, and partly through the initiative of ethnic Tibetans themselves, as they seize on the opportunities that increasing tourism brings to share their cultural life in newly commodified forms.
5. Rather than being "Sinocised" urban Tibet is being Westernised. Tibet's transition from feudalism to modernity has been a painful one, but one that many Tibetans are now embracing as they see the benefits filtering through. Young Tibetans are thus becoming increasingly less interested in religious and independence issues as they discover and embrace more de-sublimated forms of pleasure through shopping, the internet, discos, kareoke bars, and, for the smaller but growing number of wealthier bougeois individuals among them (most of whom are drawn, not surprisingly, from the families of religious tulkas) the joys of both domestic and international travel and study.
6. The traditional political activities of organised Tibetan religious intitutions throughout the TAR have been restrained, and continue to be restrained (often brutally) under Chinese governance, but generally speaking lamaism is thriving - not only throughout the TAR, but also throughout greater China (even in Beijing) and internationally too for that matter. Considerable religious freedom then, despite claims to the contrary, exists in Tibet.
7. The Tibetan Government in Exile mislead the world about the true nature of the majority of those Tibetans who journey to Dharmasala each year - most are not refugees, but religious pilgrims. The Tibetan Government in Exile has both financial and political incentives to do so.
8. The Tibetan Government in Exile and its Western supporters in the pro-Tibet lobby are funded mostly by those whose economic and political interests view China's rise as a threat. The U.S. State Department is the major contributor of funds to both the Government in Exile and to the Tibet lobby. Considerable funds are also raised through commercial activities, like international Dalai Lama lecture tours, and through the sale of Buddhist kitsch to Western New Age consumers.
9. Pro-Tibetan lobby groups essentially parade as "non-profit" human rights organisations, registering themselves as charities to encourage businesses and individuals to make tax-deductible donations - which essentially means that they are a drain on the public purse. They also have a vested interest in grossly exaggerating their claims in order to excite the sympathies of the public so that they can attract public donations and political support.
10. That by failing to present a fair and more realistic picture of what is happening in Tibet, both the self-proclaimed Tibetan Government in Exile and their supporters actually cause far more harm than good to the plight of the Tibetan people, especially for those living within the TAR. Their propaganda and support encourages hardliners within the ethnic Tibetan community living within the TAR to promote resistance and separatism, which in turn adds to the anxieties and security concerns of those hardliners within the Chinese ruling elite, who then in turn respond by introducing and enforcing more strictly those public security laws that restrict politico-religious activities - which as I said earlier, often do in fact result in brutal punishments by over-zealous enforcers. Such instances, not surprisingly then, tend to occur in waves, rather than on a regular day to day basis.
11. The main long-term political goal of the former ruling theocratic elite, now based in Dharmasala, is to regain their political control of Tibet. Their international campaign against China therefore, rather ironically, does more harm to their own cause than good, and only decreases their likelihood of ever being able to cut a deal with Beijing. The watered down goal of the Dalai Lama now, is the establishment of self-government for the TAR whilst remaining a part of China - in the same way that Hong Kong operates. Ironically, this is EXACTLY what China originally offered the Tibetan ruling elite, but by rejecting the offer in favour of supporting a separatist movement for full independence, they have now lost out completely. Easily the single biggest political mistake of the Dalai Lama's career - as A. Tom Grunfeld has convincingly pointed out.
1. Human rights abuses have and continue to occur in Tibet, but the extent of these abuses has been and continues to be greatly exaggerated by the Tibetan Government in Exile and by its Western supporters in the so-called "pro-Tibet lobby".
2. The human rights conditions and overall living standards of the majority of Tibetans has been and continues to improve under Chinese rule, and this has been the case since the Deng reforms were first introduced.
3. Most ill-feelings towards the Han Chinese and towards Chinese rule reflect the collective memory of the Cultural Revolution experience. The strength of these feelings is now beginning to fade as more and more Tibetans are drawn into the middle class, and their lives made more comfortable. Tibetans are thus becoming increasingly divided on their attitudes towards Chinese rule, and their feelings more complex and open to flux.
4. Tibetan culture is not, contrary to the propaganda of the pro-Tibet lobby, in any danger of disappearing. Quite the opposite in fact - Tibet, over the past few decades, has been and continues to experience a cultural renaissance, spurred on partly by financial grants and encouragement from Beijing, and partly through the initiative of ethnic Tibetans themselves, as they seize on the opportunities that increasing tourism brings to share their cultural life in newly commodified forms.
5. Rather than being "Sinocised" urban Tibet is being Westernised. Tibet's transition from feudalism to modernity has been a painful one, but one that many Tibetans are now embracing as they see the benefits filtering through. Young Tibetans are thus becoming increasingly less interested in religious and independence issues as they discover and embrace more de-sublimated forms of pleasure through shopping, the internet, discos, kareoke bars, and, for the smaller but growing number of wealthier bougeois individuals among them (most of whom are drawn, not surprisingly, from the families of religious tulkas) the joys of both domestic and international travel and study.
6. The traditional political activities of organised Tibetan religious intitutions throughout the TAR have been restrained, and continue to be restrained (often brutally) under Chinese governance, but generally speaking lamaism is thriving - not only throughout the TAR, but also throughout greater China (even in Beijing) and internationally too for that matter. Considerable religious freedom then, despite claims to the contrary, exists in Tibet.
7. The Tibetan Government in Exile mislead the world about the true nature of the majority of those Tibetans who journey to Dharmasala each year - most are not refugees, but religious pilgrims. The Tibetan Government in Exile has both financial and political incentives to do so.
8. The Tibetan Government in Exile and its Western supporters in the pro-Tibet lobby are funded mostly by those whose economic and political interests view China's rise as a threat. The U.S. State Department is the major contributor of funds to both the Government in Exile and to the Tibet lobby. Considerable funds are also raised through commercial activities, like international Dalai Lama lecture tours, and through the sale of Buddhist kitsch to Western New Age consumers.
9. Pro-Tibetan lobby groups essentially parade as "non-profit" human rights organisations, registering themselves as charities to encourage businesses and individuals to make tax-deductible donations - which essentially means that they are a drain on the public purse. They also have a vested interest in grossly exaggerating their claims in order to excite the sympathies of the public so that they can attract public donations and political support.
10. That by failing to present a fair and more realistic picture of what is happening in Tibet, both the self-proclaimed Tibetan Government in Exile and their supporters actually cause far more harm than good to the plight of the Tibetan people, especially for those living within the TAR. Their propaganda and support encourages hardliners within the ethnic Tibetan community living within the TAR to promote resistance and separatism, which in turn adds to the anxieties and security concerns of those hardliners within the Chinese ruling elite, who then in turn respond by introducing and enforcing more strictly those public security laws that restrict politico-religious activities - which as I said earlier, often do in fact result in brutal punishments by over-zealous enforcers. Such instances, not surprisingly then, tend to occur in waves, rather than on a regular day to day basis.
11. The main long-term political goal of the former ruling theocratic elite, now based in Dharmasala, is to regain their political control of Tibet. Their international campaign against China therefore, rather ironically, does more harm to their own cause than good, and only decreases their likelihood of ever being able to cut a deal with Beijing. The watered down goal of the Dalai Lama now, is the establishment of self-government for the TAR whilst remaining a part of China - in the same way that Hong Kong operates. Ironically, this is EXACTLY what China originally offered the Tibetan ruling elite, but by rejecting the offer in favour of supporting a separatist movement for full independence, they have now lost out completely. Easily the single biggest political mistake of the Dalai Lama's career - as A. Tom Grunfeld has convincingly pointed out.
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不知道怎么把整个辩论存下来转贴到www.anti-cnn.com去,以防PBS把它删了
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Desert loving in your eyes all the way
If I listen to your lies would you say
I'm a man without conviction, I'm a man who doesn't know
How to sell a contradiction, you come and go, you come and go
CHORUS:
Karma karma karma karma karma chameleon
You come and go, you come and go
Loving would be easy if your colors were like my dream
Red gold and green, red gold and green
Don't hear your wicked words every day
And you used to be so sweet, I heard you say
That my love was an addiction, when we cling our love is strong
When you go you're gone forever, you string along, you string along
CHORUS
Every day is like survival
You're my lover, not my rival
Every day is like survival
You're my lover, not my rival
I'm a man without conviction, I'm a man who doesn't know
How to sell a contradiction, you come and go, you come and go
If I listen to your lies would you say
I'm a man without conviction, I'm a man who doesn't know
How to sell a contradiction, you come and go, you come and go
CHORUS:
Karma karma karma karma karma chameleon
You come and go, you come and go
Loving would be easy if your colors were like my dream
Red gold and green, red gold and green
Don't hear your wicked words every day
And you used to be so sweet, I heard you say
That my love was an addiction, when we cling our love is strong
When you go you're gone forever, you string along, you string along
CHORUS
Every day is like survival
You're my lover, not my rival
Every day is like survival
You're my lover, not my rival
I'm a man without conviction, I'm a man who doesn't know
How to sell a contradiction, you come and go, you come and go
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M.A.Jones writes: "As for the Dalai Lama himself, he seems to spend more time moving around the planet with the skilled opportunism of a political chameleon, preaching mysticism to Western New Agers rather than participating in traditional Tibetan religious rituals."
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呵呵,不好意思再问个问题,怎么打开pbs文件呀?
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: Re: In response to Tony Martin (in relation to the Tibet iss
Hello Mr. M.A.Jones- Before the boards to be closed, I would like to tell you that, thank you very much for your excellent work. I have been quietly following every post on this thread in this forum, come back to read the new posts every day. I enjoyed the debate between you and others, and I have learnt so much from you. I fully support, and share your point of view on this Tibet matter.
My studies are Buddhism Art history, and Buddhism philosophy (mainly Zen Buddhism). I am not very (good at) into the political debating, but I keep my eyes open on what happens around the world, especially those political and cultural biases based conflicts.
I am always troubled by the contradictory between the public speeches on some political issues given by the Dalai Lama, and the real teaching of Buddhism, which often opposes the Dalai Lama his own position as a Buddhist, and often it sounds very stupid. In other hand, as a political figure, the Dalai Lama had full of miscalculations in his whole political career. He started his political gambling in the beginning of the cold war, supported by the CIA and India, ended up in Exile in Dharamsala, India . then he tried again in 1989 during the ending of cold war, he didn’t get any thing, but empty hands. The world political power structure has been changed completely in the last twenty years, now, the Dalai Lama wants to go back to negotiate with Beijing, but he has no more cards in his hand, no effective strategy, and no power behind him this time, accept those Tibet lobbyists, who doesn’t have real better idea to help him either. As long as he continue making his confusing, some time even stupid comments, I don’t think that the leaders of Beijing will make it easier for him any time soon,
Nelson
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: Re: In response to Tony Martin (in relation to the Tibet iss Dear Nelson2, Thank you for your supportive comments above.
I agree with your general assessment of the Dalai Lama - he maintains a strong religious following among a significant percentage of Tibetans in Tibet, but as a secessionist he is becoming increasingly irrelevant - so much so in fact, that the central government in Beijing can now afford to pretty much ignore him. His relevance as a political figure will only diminish further as Tibet coninues to modernise.
M.A.Jones
Shenzhen
