four season
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同情LZ的遭遇, 坚决支持LZ伸张正义. 只要你认为自己是正确的, M是无理的, 就应该坚持下去.
Minto购房悲剧最新进展（on closing date）
- 主题发起人 budaowen
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- 2003-03-11
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It's not a good timing to release the info about her lawyer right now.
But that is definitely not a Chinese lawyer, if anyone is concerning to hire one.
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我的几条建议：
1. 这件事是个人与一个私人公司之间的合同纠纷，找议员什么的不会有用，他们可能都不肯过问；
2. 向媒体曝光可能有点儿帮助，但是效果可能比较短暂，如果不能引起公众的持续性关注和义愤，将于事无补。要达到效果，对LZ个人的精力和与媒体打交道的能力要求较高，或者有朋友在这方面帮你运作。CFC上藏龙卧虎，但愿有高手能出手相助。
3. 具体说到媒体，几点印象：1）M是本屯各华文报纸的大客户，所以别太指望他们帮你出头；2）主流媒体方面，CFRA 善于持续关注，鼓动事情发酵，但是他们似乎很支持Landsdowne Live项目，而那事的牵头人就是M的老板；CBC 难得会持续关注某事，但是觉得可以试试CBC Radio (Ottawa)；Ottawa Citizen 是本地最重要的报纸，他们如果能报道，影响会比较大。
4. LZ 的当务之急是找一个好律师，以你一己之力很难对付M方面的法律专业人士。到了现在这个时候，你原来的律师就算是想接着干，也不能指望他了（也就是办点儿文书的水平）。像楼上网友建议的，要找能代表你打官司的律师。LZ 如果有工作，看看你单位的福利计划里，是否有 Employee Assistance Program (EAP)；如果有，可以充分利用，尽快致电，让他们给你推荐律师进行法律咨询，告诉他们事情急迫。先听听咨询律师的意见，看看有什么建议；下一步再跟EAP要求给你推荐代理律师，要本地的好律师。你应该可以先有机会免费向律师谈情况，考察对方是否合适，不合适就要求EAP继续推荐（EAP 的服务本身是免费的）。EAP 通常号称他们推荐的律师有价格折扣，不过这个不是关键。你这样的情况，真正的好律师可能会乐意免费帮你，到时让M买单。好的律师自能帮你筹划最好的策略，包括交涉，诉讼抑或利用媒体。
5. 收集，整理你的文件和证据，包括详细记录与M每一次交道的过程，文字或录音都很好。和你原来的律师先不必搞僵，下一步还要用到他做证人。
6. 希望LZ 保持积极乐观，有理有利有节，也不要因为别人的过错而太多影响了自己的心情与生活。明年此时，一切必已柳暗花明！
1. 这件事是个人与一个私人公司之间的合同纠纷，找议员什么的不会有用，他们可能都不肯过问；
2. 向媒体曝光可能有点儿帮助，但是效果可能比较短暂，如果不能引起公众的持续性关注和义愤，将于事无补。要达到效果，对LZ个人的精力和与媒体打交道的能力要求较高，或者有朋友在这方面帮你运作。CFC上藏龙卧虎，但愿有高手能出手相助。
3. 具体说到媒体，几点印象：1）M是本屯各华文报纸的大客户，所以别太指望他们帮你出头；2）主流媒体方面，CFRA 善于持续关注，鼓动事情发酵，但是他们似乎很支持Landsdowne Live项目，而那事的牵头人就是M的老板；CBC 难得会持续关注某事，但是觉得可以试试CBC Radio (Ottawa)；Ottawa Citizen 是本地最重要的报纸，他们如果能报道，影响会比较大。
4. LZ 的当务之急是找一个好律师，以你一己之力很难对付M方面的法律专业人士。到了现在这个时候，你原来的律师就算是想接着干，也不能指望他了（也就是办点儿文书的水平）。像楼上网友建议的，要找能代表你打官司的律师。LZ 如果有工作，看看你单位的福利计划里，是否有 Employee Assistance Program (EAP)；如果有，可以充分利用，尽快致电，让他们给你推荐律师进行法律咨询，告诉他们事情急迫。先听听咨询律师的意见，看看有什么建议；下一步再跟EAP要求给你推荐代理律师，要本地的好律师。你应该可以先有机会免费向律师谈情况，考察对方是否合适，不合适就要求EAP继续推荐（EAP 的服务本身是免费的）。EAP 通常号称他们推荐的律师有价格折扣，不过这个不是关键。你这样的情况，真正的好律师可能会乐意免费帮你，到时让M买单。好的律师自能帮你筹划最好的策略，包括交涉，诉讼抑或利用媒体。
5. 收集，整理你的文件和证据，包括详细记录与M每一次交道的过程，文字或录音都很好。和你原来的律师先不必搞僵，下一步还要用到他做证人。
6. 希望LZ 保持积极乐观，有理有利有节，也不要因为别人的过错而太多影响了自己的心情与生活。明年此时，一切必已柳暗花明！
pangniuniu
新手上路
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情理似乎不能让Minto低下他那高贵的头颅了，唯有晓之以利，动之以益才能触动他们的神经。
犹太人都很现实，希望他们能在不能挽回声誉以前做些积极的反应，要不然以后谁敢招惹他们？
犹太人都很现实，希望他们能在不能挽回声誉以前做些积极的反应，要不然以后谁敢招惹他们？
- 注册
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He gave up because LZ is not.
我有类似经历。事以至此，我想你要想清你要什么，义愤不能解决问题。我的建议是:
1) CLOSE 然后自己去小额法庭打回2。5万，省下律师费。
2) 接受1万用于租房，然后以上次合同同价让他们重盖。
给MINTO的信要统一口径，不能每信有不同的要求。 我给你一个和你相同的案例经法院判赢成功CASE，作为你的依照和根据。
Include floor plan in offer to avoid surprises
It never ceases to amaze me that would-be homebuyers will enter into an agreement to purchase a new home — probably the largest single financial transaction in their lives — without attaching a copy of the house designs and floor plans to the agreement of purchase and sale.
Most buyers of new homes in Ontario are given brochures and floor plans in the sales office. The house exterior is shown with full-grown trees and lawns, and measurements on the interior floor plans are shown to the nearest inch. But the plans and drawings are not part of the offer.
Virtually all offers contain an entire agreement clause, which states that any document not attached to the agreement as a schedule is not part of the deal. This includes the floor plans and elevation drawings.
The problem, of course, is that if the contract contains no details of the home being purchased, the builder can legally build whatever he wants.
There is considerable leeway to change the promised interior plans, room sizes, exterior look or elevation of the house, and the total size — without the buyer's consent.
As a result, lawyers who review builder offers for their clients are forced to tell them that the house they think they bought and the house they actually get may be totally different. Any similarity between the two is probably because of the builder's reputation for delivering what was verbally promised, and not because the offer provided the purchaser with airtight guarantees.
The reason local builders don't attach floor plans to their offers may well date back to a court case between Paul and Dragica Pavlic and their builder.
The case has never been published but is available online to subscribers of two legal databases. I was not aware of it until I received an e-mail last week from my colleague William Clark, of CAW Legal Services in Oshawa.
Back in May, 1985, the Pavlics signed an agreement to purchase a particular model in a Mississauga subdivision. Detailed specifications and floor plans were incorporated into the agreement of purchase and sale.
Nine months later, the construction manager realized that the Pavlic house was too big for the lot they had chosen, and the existing zoning bylaw required a smaller building. Without notifying the purchasers, the manager decided to reduce the size of the house to fit the lot.
A year after they signed the agreement, the plaintiffs were told that the house size had been reduced and, when they measured it, they realized the full extent of the problem. The agreement called for a house of 3,335 square feet, but the actual gross area as built was 3,054 feet — a reduction of 8.4 per cent. Eight rooms in the house were reduced in size, and the exterior design was altered as well.
The agreement of purchase and sale between the Pavlics and the builder contained a clause allowing the vendor to alter the plans if required by reason of municipal requirements or otherwise. In such case, the purchasers had obligated themselves to agree to the changes and close the transaction.
At trial, the evidence was that the builder knew at the time the contract was signed that the promised house was too big for the lot the couple purchased, and that there was no evidence the house size was reduced because of new zoning requirements. In fact, the zoning bylaw had been the same on the day the offer was signed.
In 1993, the trial judge awarded the Pavlics $21,500, plus seven years' interest and costs for the reduction in the house size.
The builder appealed the case to the Ontario Court of Appeal, and its decision was released in 1997, 10 years after the case began, and 12 years after the contract was signed in the sales office. In its decision, the appeal court ruled that the trial judge was correct in finding a breach of contract by the builder.
Bulletin 22 of Tarion Warranty Corp. (formerly the Ontario New Home Warranty Program) states that a tolerance of 2 per cent on the total area measurement is acceptable for builders, but it is only advisory and not binding. When there is no attached plan to measure the 2 per cent allowance against, the builder has a wider leeway to deliver a smaller house. (See House size not guaranteed to buyers, Title Page, April 10, 2004 at http://www.aaron.ca/columns/2004-04-10.htm.)
Buyers who receive a home significantly smaller than what was promised might discuss the Pavlic case with their lawyers.
Paul Vayda represented the Pavlics at the Court of Appeal. He told me last week that a builder should be required to put the size and room dimensions in the contract, and there should be clear penalties for a builder making the house smaller.
A builder can't breach a contract by building a different house if there are no plans attached to it in the first place.
Jim Watson is the new Minister of Consumer and Business Services in the provincial government. If he's serious about consumer protection, he might consider Vayda's advice.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Aaron is a Toronto real estate lawyer. Send questions to Bob Aaron, 10 King Street East, #1400, Toronto, Ontario M5C 1C3, or by e-mail to bob@ aaron.ca , phone 416-364-9366, or fax 416-364-3818.
1) CLOSE 然后自己去小额法庭打回2。5万，省下律师费。
2) 接受1万用于租房，然后以上次合同同价让他们重盖。
给MINTO的信要统一口径，不能每信有不同的要求。 我给你一个和你相同的案例经法院判赢成功CASE，作为你的依照和根据。
Include floor plan in offer to avoid surprises
It never ceases to amaze me that would-be homebuyers will enter into an agreement to purchase a new home — probably the largest single financial transaction in their lives — without attaching a copy of the house designs and floor plans to the agreement of purchase and sale.
Most buyers of new homes in Ontario are given brochures and floor plans in the sales office. The house exterior is shown with full-grown trees and lawns, and measurements on the interior floor plans are shown to the nearest inch. But the plans and drawings are not part of the offer.
Virtually all offers contain an entire agreement clause, which states that any document not attached to the agreement as a schedule is not part of the deal. This includes the floor plans and elevation drawings.
The problem, of course, is that if the contract contains no details of the home being purchased, the builder can legally build whatever he wants.
There is considerable leeway to change the promised interior plans, room sizes, exterior look or elevation of the house, and the total size — without the buyer's consent.
As a result, lawyers who review builder offers for their clients are forced to tell them that the house they think they bought and the house they actually get may be totally different. Any similarity between the two is probably because of the builder's reputation for delivering what was verbally promised, and not because the offer provided the purchaser with airtight guarantees.
The reason local builders don't attach floor plans to their offers may well date back to a court case between Paul and Dragica Pavlic and their builder.
The case has never been published but is available online to subscribers of two legal databases. I was not aware of it until I received an e-mail last week from my colleague William Clark, of CAW Legal Services in Oshawa.
Back in May, 1985, the Pavlics signed an agreement to purchase a particular model in a Mississauga subdivision. Detailed specifications and floor plans were incorporated into the agreement of purchase and sale.
Nine months later, the construction manager realized that the Pavlic house was too big for the lot they had chosen, and the existing zoning bylaw required a smaller building. Without notifying the purchasers, the manager decided to reduce the size of the house to fit the lot.
A year after they signed the agreement, the plaintiffs were told that the house size had been reduced and, when they measured it, they realized the full extent of the problem. The agreement called for a house of 3,335 square feet, but the actual gross area as built was 3,054 feet — a reduction of 8.4 per cent. Eight rooms in the house were reduced in size, and the exterior design was altered as well.
The agreement of purchase and sale between the Pavlics and the builder contained a clause allowing the vendor to alter the plans if required by reason of municipal requirements or otherwise. In such case, the purchasers had obligated themselves to agree to the changes and close the transaction.
At trial, the evidence was that the builder knew at the time the contract was signed that the promised house was too big for the lot the couple purchased, and that there was no evidence the house size was reduced because of new zoning requirements. In fact, the zoning bylaw had been the same on the day the offer was signed.
In 1993, the trial judge awarded the Pavlics $21,500, plus seven years' interest and costs for the reduction in the house size.
The builder appealed the case to the Ontario Court of Appeal, and its decision was released in 1997, 10 years after the case began, and 12 years after the contract was signed in the sales office. In its decision, the appeal court ruled that the trial judge was correct in finding a breach of contract by the builder.
Bulletin 22 of Tarion Warranty Corp. (formerly the Ontario New Home Warranty Program) states that a tolerance of 2 per cent on the total area measurement is acceptable for builders, but it is only advisory and not binding. When there is no attached plan to measure the 2 per cent allowance against, the builder has a wider leeway to deliver a smaller house. (See House size not guaranteed to buyers, Title Page, April 10, 2004 at http://www.aaron.ca/columns/2004-04-10.htm.)
Buyers who receive a home significantly smaller than what was promised might discuss the Pavlic case with their lawyers.
Paul Vayda represented the Pavlics at the Court of Appeal. He told me last week that a builder should be required to put the size and room dimensions in the contract, and there should be clear penalties for a builder making the house smaller.
A builder can't breach a contract by building a different house if there are no plans attached to it in the first place.
Jim Watson is the new Minister of Consumer and Business Services in the provincial government. If he's serious about consumer protection, he might consider Vayda's advice.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Aaron is a Toronto real estate lawyer. Send questions to Bob Aaron, 10 King Street East, #1400, Toronto, Ontario M5C 1C3, or by e-mail to bob@ aaron.ca , phone 416-364-9366, or fax 416-364-3818.
budaowen
新手上路
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- 2011-04-20
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我没同意Minto的要求,他指的是购房合同.就是根据购房合同,他们要给我一个和合同里不一样的房子.After second Inspection, even Minto's employee said "they should let you know it (Yorkville C reduced Nook)at the beginning"
The Minto guy did 2nd inspection with me. He insisted me put my signature in the computer sheet of the inspection, I told him I couldn't sign because of the problem. I called my sister in USA who is co-home buyer right way to discuss what words we would put down. I typed Minto didn't tell us they reduced breakfast area and retreat master bedroom size from 11'x10'2''/11'x17' to 11'x6'9''/11'/13'7''. On May 18, 1 day before 2nd inspection, I received different floor plan (different from my APS) from Minto sals lady for the first time. This is unacceptably, and I need talk to Minto to solve this issue. After typing these words(I couldn't remember exact words) I signed. The Minto inspection guy helped me to type these words, and I checked, then I signed. But these words typed in Minto computer, it was easily to be deleted. If Minto does this, it will come criminal.
肥猫
本站元老
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我很理解楼主的心情，也支持楼主的决定，无论是接受M的和解还是继续找律师打官司。如果有什么可以帮忙的地方，会尽力帮忙。
M这个事，是他们的错误，导致了楼主各方面的不便，他们应该作出赔偿，这是显而易见的。如果楼主想要找个说法，我建议你找一个更称职的律师，搜集所有的证据，到小额法庭去打。打官司有一个好处是不管结果如何，是个所谓的公证裁决，对你的心里是个安慰。
同时也劝楼主，再静下来想一想哪个方案对自己更有利。哪个更值得。如果你是单身没有三个孩子，有时间有工夫那就不用想了。但你现在带着孩子，花时间花精力不说孩子也跟着来回折腾，所有这些说到最后，M只能靠一些经济赔偿来解决问题，这些经济赔偿会有多大，能否弥补你所在这件事情上付出的精力时间，你和孩子们所费的周折。各方面的利弊都想一下，找个更适合自己的解决方法。如果有什么地方能帮到的，请上网告诉我们，大家都会尽力帮忙的。
刚看到你发的联系方式，我也会给他们发信的，到时候有回复的话会上来更新的。
M这个事，是他们的错误，导致了楼主各方面的不便，他们应该作出赔偿，这是显而易见的。如果楼主想要找个说法，我建议你找一个更称职的律师，搜集所有的证据，到小额法庭去打。打官司有一个好处是不管结果如何，是个所谓的公证裁决，对你的心里是个安慰。
同时也劝楼主，再静下来想一想哪个方案对自己更有利。哪个更值得。如果你是单身没有三个孩子，有时间有工夫那就不用想了。但你现在带着孩子，花时间花精力不说孩子也跟着来回折腾，所有这些说到最后，M只能靠一些经济赔偿来解决问题，这些经济赔偿会有多大，能否弥补你所在这件事情上付出的精力时间，你和孩子们所费的周折。各方面的利弊都想一下，找个更适合自己的解决方法。如果有什么地方能帮到的，请上网告诉我们，大家都会尽力帮忙的。
刚看到你发的联系方式，我也会给他们发信的，到时候有回复的话会上来更新的。
