我们一邻居－底特律－破产了，大家有何想法？
- 主题发起人 majiaeryi
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不支持，老向说中国政府是人民的大救星，人民的父母，永远代表最广大的人民利益所以说政府到哪儿都是王八蛋。
从低点反弹，新招的汽车工人时薪十几刀，是以前一半不到。
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focus on today
资深人士
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从照片上看，花还是开了，漂亮的爬藤还是那么漂亮，枫叶树还是那么好看 -只是人手做的退败了。不知那个多伦多人买了那个体育馆现在怎样。
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- 2012-02-27
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事情大概经过是:
三大汽车厂在二战后风光无限，底特律经济繁荣，于是工会给工人要更好待遇，政府税收增加，公务员待遇提高。
后来倭人发奋图强，倭车质量超过美车，三大汽车厂日子逐渐难过起来。但工会拒绝减少工人福利，公务员仍按步就班加工资。
三大车厂日子更难过，最后两家破产，三家都大幅裁人，底特律人口从200万减少到70万，政府税收大幅减少，但支出不减，于是借钱渡日。
到现在还不上钱了，于是破产赖帐。
大错特错！
底特律走到今天的局面，与工会和公务员没有一毛钱关系。
真正的原因有两个：
1）全球化
2）工业革命时代的终结（以制造业为代表）和信息时代的开始和发展（自动化和信息）。
其中的全球化。导致制造业外移，美国加拿大的工业制造业空心化。美国和加拿大的IT和信息产业目前也面临着同样的威胁，叫做“外包”。
majiaeryi
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希腊的2010数据：
总债务/人口 ＝ 170b 欧元/11.3m人口 ＝ 15,221欧元
我们离GREECE有多远？
________________________
Ontario's debt load larger than California's thanks to big-spending ways; Is the province heading for a Greek-style financial meltdown?
TORONTO, ON—Ontario’s debt load is higher than that of California, America’s most-indebted state, and could reach 66 per cent of GDP by 2019 unless the provincial government musters the courage to rein in spending, says a new report released today by the Fraser Institute, an independent, non-partisan Canadian public policy think-tank.
“California has been roundly criticized by news media and the financial markets for its inability to control spending and reduce deficits. Yet Ontario, with a fraction of California’s population and a significantly smaller economy, is carrying a debt load almost two-thirds larger than California,” said Jason Clemens, Fraser Institute executive vice-president and co-editor of The State of Ontario’s Indebtedness.
“The first priority for incoming Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne has to be taking action on the province’s precarious financial situation. Ontario simply cannot continue spending money it doesn’t have; otherwise it will soon be compared to Greece, not California.”
The State of Ontario’s Indebtedness examines Ontario’s deficit and debt from three perspectives: a comparison to California, the future of Ontario’s debt if current spending trends continue, and a comparison of Ontario’s debt load and spending outlook to that of Greece. Combined, the three chapters detail the extent of the problem facing Ontario and paint a cautionary tale of what could happen if the Ontario government delays taking action.
“Comparisons to Greece may seem farfetched but Ontario’s net debt to GDP currently sits at 37 per cent, the same as Greece in 1984,” said Niels Veldhuis, Fraser Institute president and co-editor of the report.
.....
On any comparative measure of bonded debt, Ontario fares much worse than California. Ontario’s debt is almost two-thirds larger than California’s even though California is much larger in both the size of its economy and its population. As a share of the economy, Ontario’s debt (38.6 per cent) is more than five times larger than California’s (7.7 per cent). Ontario’s per-capita debt ($17,921) is more than four-and-a-half times that of California ($3,833) and Ontario spends more than three times the amount of revenues on interest costs as California.
......
“The frightening aspect of Ontario’s debt is the lack of attention it receives, not just from politicians, but from the media, organized labour, businesses, and just about every single Ontarian,” Clemens said.
“Ontario is in a worse situation than California and it will only get worse unless the provincial government finds a way to reduce spending.”
The report concludes with a chapter by Lakehead University economist Livio Di Matteo comparing Ontario’s fiscal situation to Greece. Di Matteo points out that Greece’s net debt to GDP stood at 37 per cent in 1984, the same level as Ontario’s today and increased to 66 per cent over the next decade. Since then, Greece’s net public debt has spun out of control, reaching 163 per cent of GDP in 2011.
........
“If Ontario continues spending at its current rate, its net debt will increase to 66 per cent from 37 per cent in just seven years. It took Greece 10 years to experience a similar increase. This highlights the unsustainability of Ontario’s current spending trends,” Veldhuis said.
.......
总债务/人口 ＝ 170b 欧元/11.3m人口 ＝ 15,221欧元
我们离GREECE有多远？
________________________
Ontario's debt load larger than California's thanks to big-spending ways; Is the province heading for a Greek-style financial meltdown?
TORONTO, ON—Ontario’s debt load is higher than that of California, America’s most-indebted state, and could reach 66 per cent of GDP by 2019 unless the provincial government musters the courage to rein in spending, says a new report released today by the Fraser Institute, an independent, non-partisan Canadian public policy think-tank.
“California has been roundly criticized by news media and the financial markets for its inability to control spending and reduce deficits. Yet Ontario, with a fraction of California’s population and a significantly smaller economy, is carrying a debt load almost two-thirds larger than California,” said Jason Clemens, Fraser Institute executive vice-president and co-editor of The State of Ontario’s Indebtedness.
“The first priority for incoming Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne has to be taking action on the province’s precarious financial situation. Ontario simply cannot continue spending money it doesn’t have; otherwise it will soon be compared to Greece, not California.”
The State of Ontario’s Indebtedness examines Ontario’s deficit and debt from three perspectives: a comparison to California, the future of Ontario’s debt if current spending trends continue, and a comparison of Ontario’s debt load and spending outlook to that of Greece. Combined, the three chapters detail the extent of the problem facing Ontario and paint a cautionary tale of what could happen if the Ontario government delays taking action.
“Comparisons to Greece may seem farfetched but Ontario’s net debt to GDP currently sits at 37 per cent, the same as Greece in 1984,” said Niels Veldhuis, Fraser Institute president and co-editor of the report.
.....
On any comparative measure of bonded debt, Ontario fares much worse than California. Ontario’s debt is almost two-thirds larger than California’s even though California is much larger in both the size of its economy and its population. As a share of the economy, Ontario’s debt (38.6 per cent) is more than five times larger than California’s (7.7 per cent). Ontario’s per-capita debt ($17,921) is more than four-and-a-half times that of California ($3,833) and Ontario spends more than three times the amount of revenues on interest costs as California.
......
“The frightening aspect of Ontario’s debt is the lack of attention it receives, not just from politicians, but from the media, organized labour, businesses, and just about every single Ontarian,” Clemens said.
“Ontario is in a worse situation than California and it will only get worse unless the provincial government finds a way to reduce spending.”
The report concludes with a chapter by Lakehead University economist Livio Di Matteo comparing Ontario’s fiscal situation to Greece. Di Matteo points out that Greece’s net debt to GDP stood at 37 per cent in 1984, the same level as Ontario’s today and increased to 66 per cent over the next decade. Since then, Greece’s net public debt has spun out of control, reaching 163 per cent of GDP in 2011.
........
“If Ontario continues spending at its current rate, its net debt will increase to 66 per cent from 37 per cent in just seven years. It took Greece 10 years to experience a similar increase. This highlights the unsustainability of Ontario’s current spending trends,” Veldhuis said.
.......
