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Stuka
Junior Member 递交于03-07-2002 13:44
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Gray, everybody here can see that you're a very nice girl,
considering about others situation from the bottom of your heart.
But here we are in a world with law and rules. Always there is no
much space for sentiment in many affairs. Make your own
judgement and don't get yourself hurt. Good luck!
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-07-2002 13:30
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Very likely.
quote:
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来源于：Typhoon:
Why's he looking for opinions then? There are well documented
guidelines for unethical academic practices. He could very well
could have handled it by the book. I'm just offering some
alternative theories here.
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IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-07-2002 12:33
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quote:
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来源于：Tyr:
I seriously doubt it.
The prof has no reason to look for a 台阶, or downplay the inccident.
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Why's he looking for opinions then? There are well documented
guidelines for unethical academic practices. He could very well
could have handled it by the book. I'm just offering some
alternative theories here.
IP: Logged
Tyr
Junior Member 递交于03-07-2002 12:12
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quote:
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来源于：Typhoon:
There might be another reason for his request of your
recommendations. He might be willing to downplay the incident and
was just looking for a 台阶. That would obviously be the best case
scenario . . . . *sigh*
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I seriously doubt it.
The prof has no reason to look for a 台阶, or downplay the inccident.
IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-07-2002 12:04
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There might be another reason for his request of your
recommendations. He might be willing to downplay the incident and
was just looking for a 台阶. That would obviously be the best case
scenario . . . . *sigh*
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 12:00
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I toned down the email a bit and just sent it out. I am ready to get
it out of my system and move on. My own plate is pretty full too.
Cannot afford to be obsessed by this matter any more.
Thanks, all, for you support and suggestions. This is my first
extensive communication on a bbs. Very impressive indeed.
IP: Logged
kethy
Senior Member
递交于03-07-2002 10:03
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grey, don't be too depressed for this. You can tell yourself: since
they really made a mistake, they should pay for it. This is the thing
that nobody can do for them. As for the email, I think your email is
very well written too. Since you trust the professor and he is asking
for your thought, you can honestly tell they deserve a punishment,
but you hope they still get the chance to continue their school.
Don't let this take control of your emotions. They don't deserve it.
IP: Logged
hey
Junior Member 递交于03-07-2002 04:55
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Thank you for dealing it this way. Thanks for thinking of it this
way. Then forget it, no light can lighten the world. You will have
a peaceful mind anyway.
[这个帖子已经被hey修改过。(时间：03-07-2002).]
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 01:20
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不能怪偶势利，跟聪明人谈话就是舒服，怎么句句都跟小熨斗似的。
偶难受一天了，白白了。明天再发那EMAIL。
IP: Logged
pearl
Super Member
递交于03-07-2002 01:11
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I agree with Friday. Grey mm, I was really quite moved that you are
willing and you have put so much efforts to care about them. Just do
whateve you can, and that will be it. Don't get stressed out over this.
And, I also prey that those two Chinese students can survive this
turmoil and can seriously learn from this. Everybody makes mistakes
somewhere down the road. I mean everybody. And sometimes we
make very stupid mistakes. But everybody deserves a second chance,
if the mistake does not go extreme.
IP: Logged
Friday
Forum Leader
递交于03-07-2002 00:57
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Hey take it easy grey. It's just an annoying thing that happened to
occur in your TA session. Americans tend to treat people
individually, so don't burden yourself with the fact that those two
are Chinese. Have a good night sleep.
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 00:50
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Thanks Shanren. I was trying to appeal to his sympathy without
sounding overly pathetic. Also, it is true that the students may
break down. I deleted the examples I put in there--trying not to make
it a real threat. It is a very delicate balance there.
Let me polish it more. Really appreciate it, Shanren.
I wish I spent so much time and effort in my own research paper .
quote:
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来源于：山人:
Very well written. However, i would turn down the part of
It seems to me more like a threat than reasoning. If it were me, a
slightly more focus on the hardship would be more of a choice.
Furthermore, I would like to suggest to give them a second chance.
[这个帖子已经被山人修改过。(时间：03-07-2002).]
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IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 00:42
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Thanks Pearl Friday and Typhoon...That is exactly why I have not sent
out the email yet. I agree that the suggestion part should be taken
out.
His decision is to refer the students to the program office, and it
is up to the assistant dean about what to do. He may want to pitch in
some suggestion though. He also wants to avoid too much trouble as
before the class started, he specifically inquired about possible
troublesome students.
Another agenda for him to invite my opinion--may be--related to the
fact that they are about to start dealing with the two doctoral
students from China le. If he feels I am a trustworthy source for
additional information, they might want my input on that matter too.
I am the only CHinese doctoral student in addition to the two in
question.
I feel tremendously pressured. I hope this is all my paronoia.
IP: Logged
山人
Senior Member
递交于03-07-2002 00:42
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Very well written. However, i would turn down the part of
quote:
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I am worried that if they are kicked out, they
will suffer from such bruised ego that their
whole life could be ruined. In extreme cases
they could become psychologically unstable and
be dangerous. Note that in our particular case,
a couple would go through this together, which
would make it harder to take as they could turn
nobody for support.
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It seems to me more like a threat than reasoning. If it were me, a
slightly more focus on the hardship would be more of a choice.
Furthermore, I would like to suggest to give them a second chance.
[这个帖子已经被山人修改过。(时间：03-07-2002).]
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-07-2002 00:34
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Agree with pearl and Friday. You could just say something
like "please take this into your consideration".
IP: Logged
Friday
Forum Leader
递交于03-07-2002 00:27
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I, as a bystander, like the email. It is very well written and
presents a strong opinion about the whole incident. But I would tune
it down before sending it to the professor. No doubt he has his own
opinion and decisions seem to have already been made according to his
own judgement. He says he welcomes other thoughts but he surely will
not feel comfortable being adviced or even challenged. I'd take out
the suggestion part, or at least modify it.
IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-07-2002 00:19
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quote:
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来源于：grey:
I have been working with the Prof. for two years and plan to
invite him to be the co-chair of my committee. He is a very nice
person, and I think he wants to know how I think. Well, this is
honestly what I am thinking about.
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Then I am sure he will appreciate the candid nature of your email.
You have done all you can to help them out. 谋事在人, 成事在天.
Hope you feel better soon.
IP: Logged
pearl
Super Member
递交于03-07-2002 00:19
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Grey, your email is very well written. But I guess playing the tone a little
down might work better.
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 00:09
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I have been working with the Prof. for two years and plan to invite
him to be the co-chair of my committee. He is a very nice person, and
I think he wants to know how I think. Well, this is honestly what I
am thinking about.
I do tend to be too nice though.
IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 23:59
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quote:
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来源于：grey:
教授EMAIL给我，说They could be expelled completely or for, say,
one quarter. They could also receive an "F" grade in this
course. We'll try to decide on this relatively shortly. If
you have an opinion, I'd welcome it.
偶DRAFTED以下这个EMAIL，还没发给教授。偶把真名省略了。不知大家怎么想？
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How well does the prof know you? Does he regard you well? This is a
rather emotional email, not knowing him, I'm afraid I, or for that
matter most others on here, can't really offer much insight on the
issue. It's a tremondous injustice for you to go through this for
their wrong doings. I do wish you the best of luck.
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 23:34
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教授EMAIL给我，说They could be expelled completely or for, say, one
quarter. They could also receive an "F" grade in this
course. We'll try to decide on this relatively shortly. If
you have an opinion, I'd welcome it.
偶DRAFTED以下这个EMAIL，还没发给教授。偶把真名省略了。不知大家怎么想？
I agree that the students should be solely responsible for the
plagarism. They have to receive due punishment to learn to behave
properly. I have no idea about the student in xx's section, but yy
impressed me positively as she did well in another assignment and got
13 out of 15 for that assignment. Her class participation was good
too. It is very disappointing to see this misconduct on the zzz case.
On Tuesday afternoon when I told her that I wanted to talk to her
about the case write-up, she was very remorseful and admitted that
she erred before I confronted her. THen she submitted the second
paper, which I emailed you earlier this afternoon.
I do hate to see them being kicked out of school though. It is a
tremendous financial investment for a student to pursue an MBA
degree. For an international student, it has more impact on their
lives than their US classmates in the sense that it is more of a life-
changing opportunity. I am worried that if they are kicked out, they
will suffer from such bruised ego that their whole life could be
ruined. In extreme cases they could become psychologically unstable
and be dangerous. Note that in our particular case, a couple would go
through this together, which would make it harder to take as they
could turn nobody for support.
Therefore, if I were to handle this situation, I would suggest a less
severe penalty than expulsion. I dont know about the school policy,
but it would be wise to suggest maybe a probation.
Just my two cents. To be frank I was so bothered by the fact that
these students came from China, I was basically depressed ever since
I found out about it.
IP: Logged
丹儿
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 22:54
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quote:
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来源于：kethy:
I think here you are talking about cheating on an Engineering
area, like doing the homework or something.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheating in engineering is taken extremely serious in my school.
Profs keep mentioning how copying someone else's work is considered
professional misconduct for Professional Engineer.
So copying small section (such as a diagram in a memo) will be
reported to prof. Any thing beyond that is brought to the associated
dean, and the student will be at least on probation until graduation.
IP: Logged
syringe
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 19:22
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我有一朋友,教授让他们做名词解释的作业.他就把书上原话抄上,竟然也算cheating
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 18:05
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偶没有跟BOY的TA谈。昨天也是跟自己朋友们私下里说的，并没有提他们的名字。
今天教授已经要BOY去谈话，并且要上报院里了。教授问偶要偶这个学生交的两篇
PAPER看，说“I DONT WANT HER TO GET AWAY WITH IT IF SHE STOLE THE
PAPER FROM ANOTHER STUDENT”。
看来再交的这个PAPER什么作用也没起。偶这个教授还是偶知道的里面最NICE的一
个。偶没有办法了。
开车逛了四个小时，心情仍旧乱糟糟。不晓得为什么自己有深重的羞耻感。
谢谢大家的建议。FOR ME THIS IS A LOSE-LOSE SITUATION。
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：Dante:
Well, maybe to late now, since you already talked to the spouse's TA
(since you know that spouse turned in the same paper to that TA).
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IP: Logged
Funky
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 17:37
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In our department, a bunch of Indian students cheated.
IP: Logged
pearl
Super Member
递交于03-06-2002 16:20
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quote:
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来源于：Dante:
What Stang suggested is a good idea. It should be part of the
FAQs/survival guide, together with "how to find an apartment", "how
to open a bank account", "how to buy a car", etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We got an international student survival guide as I attended my MBA
program. Besides listing what you put above, it conspicuously put one
item "Please bath frequently to make yourself pleasantly smelled" (I
couldn't remember the exact wording). I am serious. Oh well, I was
not feeling offended at the moment. I figured out that this item might be
targeting a different ethnic group. But I was still amazed that they would
dare put it there. Maybe the odor issue had got too much a headache to
ignore. .
IP: Logged
Stangboy
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 16:11
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Which reminds me of one thing: in our TA orientation, our ever so
humorous bio. 101 professor said to us: if it's true love, please,
guys, wail till the semester is over.
That kinda left a lasting impression.
As for the issue of plagerism, I don't think my school gave us any
details orally in the orietation, or maybe as others, my English
wasn't good enough to catch all of it. Details like using quotation
marks for original quotes, cite authors whenever you can and always
use your own words whenever quotation marks are not used, have to be
acquired from experience, some people learned them the hard way, I
fortunately learned them from others' heartbreaking experience.
Undergrads may receive more comprehensive instructions, but grad
students are sometimes assumed aware of the them. Call it negligence
on the University side, but that's the reality in some schools.
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 16:05
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Two of the issues that are stressed the most are:
1. How to deal with cheating students;
2. Don't get yourself into a sex harrassment case;
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 16:02
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For those graduate students who do TA will take it more seriously
since they both teachers and students at the same time, and they have
training/workshop about this particular issue.
For those unders, MBA students or any other students without TA
experience, they might not know how serious it is.
What Stang suggested is a good idea. It should be part of the
FAQs/survival guide, together with "how to find an apartment", "how
to open a bank account", "how to buy a car", etc.
IP: Logged
shishi
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 15:55
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quote:
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来源于：Stangboy:
How many people actually read the booklets? A bit emphasis
doesn't hurt, and a few examples will leave a lasting
impression.
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new students have a week long orientation and they read the
thing several times to us. they also tell us what we should
do if find students cheat if we are TA. (they also tell us
don't date students... )
of course, more emphasis won't hurt.
IP: Logged
Stangboy
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 15:52
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How many people actually read the booklets? A bit emphasis doesn't
hurt, and a few examples will leave a lasting impression.
IP: Logged
shishi
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 15:26
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quote:
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来源于：仙人掌:
同意四糖，我觉得新生入学时真应该讲一讲这事。在国内，把作
业给人抄是表示交情的一种表现，在这就真是上纲上线的事了。
一般要是知道后果会这么严重，我想应该没人敢这么做了。
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our school surely has this in the booklets given to new
students. I don't think there are schools don't mention
this.
IP: Logged
仙人掌
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 15:20
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同意四糖，我觉得新生入学时真应该讲一讲这事。在国内，把作
业给人抄是表示交情的一种表现，在这就真是上纲上线的事了。
一般要是知道后果会这么严重，我想应该没人敢这么做了。
IP: Logged
a.k.a.
Junior Member 递交于03-06-2002 15:16
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quote:
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来源于：木匠:
As a metter of fact, when I applied for graduate school years ago, I
benifitted from the good reputition sb else set up in that department.
That student was from the same department in the same university I
went to in china.
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I've benefitted from the same thing too. The student before me was a
classmate of mine in college. She excelled in all areas and impressed everyone
in the department. I am glad to say I was the second in a string of 7 students in
6 years admmited to the department from our not-so-famous alma mater. In
fact, when the program was overwhelmed by >500 Chinese applicants each
year and decided only recruit from a list of ten institutes in China, my school was
listed even it is nowhere near top ten status.
In my department, two students were forced to quit because of cheating. One
of them was a Chinese student.
[这个帖子已经被a.k.a.修改过。(时间：03-06-2002).]
IP: Logged
木匠
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 15:09
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quote:
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来源于：Stupid:
Do not tell the professor his impression at all. Just stating the
facts and let him handle it from there. 别画蛇添足。
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I know, I know. 理智上是应该不多向 BOSS 废话的， 只是 有 时
心太软。
My heart is in right place, but the mind is not.
Is that how it is said?
IP: Logged
Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 14:57
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ＣＢＣ。Canadian Born Chinese and Chinese Born Chinese
quote:
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来源于：Dante:
ABC bah?
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[这个帖子已经被Stupid修改过。(时间：03-06-2002).]
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:55
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ABC bah?
quote:
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来源于：Stupid:
俺以前带ＴＡ的时候，所有中国学生都是最好的，当时有５个学生，就是前五名。
好的真是没办法说。不过也许是我带的班是ＭＥＤ预课班吧。
俺当时考试的时候，老师发了卷子转身就走。半小时后回来回答几个问题，然后又走
了。完全没人监考，也没见到谁作弊啊。
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IP: Logged
定远舰
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:53
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出国人数多了，水平就下降。
我知道有T，G，成绩单，推荐信全部伪造出来
读MBA的主。真是羞与这种人为伍。
quote:
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来源于：Stupid:
俺以前带ＴＡ的时候，所有中国学生都是最好的，当时有５个学生，就是前
五名。
好的真是没办法说。不过也许是我带的班是ＭＥＤ预课班吧。
俺当时考试的时候，老师发了卷子转身就走。半小时后回来回答几个问题，然后
又走
了。完全没人监考，也没见到谁作弊啊。
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IP: Logged
Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 14:48
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俺以前带ＴＡ的时候，所有中国学生都是最好的，当时有５个学生，就是前五名。
好的真是没办法说。不过也许是我带的班是ＭＥＤ预课班吧。
俺当时考试的时候，老师发了卷子转身就走。半小时后回来回答几个问题，然后又走
了。完全没人监考，也没见到谁作弊啊。
IP: Logged
Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 14:45
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Do not tell the professor his impression at all. Just stating the
facts and let him handle it from there. 别画蛇添足。
quote:
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来源于：木匠:
I didn't suggest hiding anything. Mr. Grey should present the
cheating
paper first and make it clear to the professor that you don't think
such a
cheating is excusable. The decision is up to the professor. But as
the
TA, Mr. Grey should have the chance to tell the professor his
impression about the student. This could make some difference.
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IP: Logged
定远舰
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:40
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我当TA的时候判作业很仔细，经常发现抄袭的，都是老美。
我一般是被抄的减半，抄的0分。一般老美抄袭都是不CARE
的UNDER，所以得零蛋也不在乎，所以一直没有问题。直到有
一个家伙居然敢来信质问我。我当即不客气地指出，“你丫
抄袭！既然你丫还敢不服，我决定送教授那里了。”这斯
立刻跑来求情。还好我一向心软，就算了。我觉得在美
的中国人要想正名，首先从自己作起，对待同胞也要光明磊落。
这事你要隐瞒其实反倒是在伤害整个中国人这个群体。
[这个帖子已经被定远舰修改过。(时间：03-06-2002).]
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:31
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Well, I was kinda teasing, since Grey emphasized so many times about
chinese in his post.
quote:
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来源于：uh_oh:
难道抄的只是中国学生吗? 好象是今年年初的时候看过一篇新闻说
某个学校(忘了是加拿大还是美国)的某个课程的上百个学生发现抄袭
同一篇文章,结果全部开除.不可能那些学生全都是中国人吧?!!!
当然,很有可能那篇新闻不是真的, 毕竟上百人抄同一篇文章听起来太假.
但是不可否认的是抄作业的不只是中国人也还有其他人.别一想到抄作业
就跟中国学生连在一起.
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IP: Logged
木匠
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:20
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I think Mr. Grey has a good heart and wish to help fellow chinese if he
could. But I really don't think covering-up would do any good to the
reputation of chinese student as a whole.
As a metter of fact, when I applied for graduate school years ago, I
benifitted from the good reputition sb else set up in that department.
That student was from the same department in the same university I
went to in china. We didn't know each though. He came to united states
and joined the graduate school one year before I applied for the same
program. His professor was the chair of the committee that is in charge
of selecting perspective students from numeous application letters. I
had a friend in the same university and he went to that professor to ask
for the admitting results. That professor aparently didn't remember my
name at the begining. But as he pulled out my materials, he said:" Oh, I
have a student from the same place. And that student is great. OK, I
don't mind have another good student in the department. I will suggets
this guy in next week's meeting." And I got the fellowship.
After I started my graduate study, I figured out who that person was. He
migt never know what he had done for me, but I always feel gratefulness
for him to setup such a good impression among Americans, not only for
himself, but also for all the other chinese students to come. God works
in a mysterious way.
The point here is: setting up a good repution is more benificial to your
fellow chinese than covering up some stupid mistake for them.
IP: Logged
uh_oh
Junior Member 递交于03-06-2002 14:17
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quote:
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来源于：Dante:
Or I didn't have many Chinese
students?
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难道抄的只是中国学生吗? 好象是今年年初的时候看过一篇新闻说
某个学校(忘了是加拿大还是美国)的某个课程的上百个学生发现抄袭
同一篇文章,结果全部开除.不可能那些学生全都是中国人吧?!!!
当然,很有可能那篇新闻不是真的, 毕竟上百人抄同一篇文章听起来太假.
但是不可否认的是抄作业的不只是中国人也还有其他人.别一想到抄作业
就跟中国学生连在一起.
IP: Logged
Stangboy
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 14:16
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我以前上计算机的课的时候班里的中国同学几乎都是一起做作业，也算是cheating,
上AI的时候有六个人被教授抓住，不过后来从轻处理了。感觉在国内上大学的时候讲
什么ethics是要被人嘲笑的，所以很多人到美国以后犯了大忌自己还不知道。以前系
里有个女生顺手从一篇Cell article上照搬了几句话，被教授给了个F。看她哭成那
样真是可怜她。各校的CSSA应该把这种事情的严重性列入Survival Guide里面，每年
给新生讲讲。各位还在念书的，应该给本校的CSSA建议一下。
IP: Logged
ravaged
Junior Member 递交于03-06-2002 14:12
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btw not all cases of plagiarism result in expulsion (though this case
sounds pretty serious). there are appropriate procedures, and what
they get from the academic committee is simply beyond your control.
plus, would you be willing to lie for them in a formal hearing too?
just give it up.
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:11
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If you wanna Gong Shi Gong Ban, just pass the hot potato to your
professor.
If you wanna give your student a second chance, because you think
that they are fresh out of China and don't know how things work in
US, you could hint him/her (just your student, not the spouse) in
someway, so s/he could use some excuse to retract the homework. They
are smart ppl, so the spouse will know what to do on his/her part.
Well, maybe to late now, since you already talked to the spouse's TA
(since you know that spouse turned in the same paper to that TA).
IP: Logged
saturn
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:00
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没有什么好讲的,中国学生抄袭,换了我会看一下,如果只是语言上的抄袭,退回
重做,
属于内容,思路的明显抄袭,该砸办就咋办
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:59
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Don't remember that any of the students I TAed cheated. Maybe all the
classes I taught were experiments. Or I didn't have many Chinese
students?
Some of them did take shortcuts or were simply too lazy. But that
will be reflected in their scores.
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You already threw them into sh*t holes by talking about it to other
TAs.
The best thing that you should have done is to warn your student and
ask him to resubmit. It is too late for anything now.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：grey:
偶也知道他们不容易。这两夫妇齐齐自费来读MBA，也算不错了。不知怎么拿到去
年的
PAPER，就交上来了。偏偏这篇被抄的PAPER就是教授给TA的范文--他们的眼光是好
的。
他们两个在不同的SECTION，同一个教授，两个不同的TA。太明显了，装做没发现的
话，他们的PAPER会成范文，教授只要溜一小眼就发现了，倒会显得偶这个TA是吃白
饭的。再说，另一个SECTION的TA，一个法国人，也不会视而不见。
昨天问了几个其他的TA，一个说，他们这么大人了，自己不对自己负责，怎么能叫别
人对他们负责呢。直接上交教授得了。
另一个从香港来，说，他们拿到去年的PAPER，知道怎么是一篇好PAPER，已经是很好
的INFORMATION。也不过是6页的PAPER，自己写就是了。怎么这么懒惰。
再一个说，要么TOTALLY IGNORE，要么就交给教授处理。STAY OUT OF TROUBLE。
如果偶COVER不成，美国人会对偶的ETHICAL STANDARDS产生疑问。这个，偶以后还
要不要饭碗了。这是关乎一辈子的事呢。
听着都有道理。TOTALLY IGNORE是不可能了，牵涉到至少两个学生，两个TA，雷同的
PAPER，还都是抄的。
可是听着人家批判他们，偶自己心里也感到羞耻。闹出来以后，对这里所有的中国学
生都是一个NEGATIVE IMPACT。弄不好还会夫妻双双把家还。也太惨烈了。
另一个SECTION的，也是一个INTERNATIONAL学生，偶教授也没警告，也没讨价还
价，直接给零分，交给PROGRAM OFFICE。今天DEAN跟学生谈话。
偶让这个学生又交了一篇自己写的PAPER，不知能不能帮到他们。
到现在为止，还替他们瞒着名字。成了偶的一块心病。
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IP: Logged
木匠
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:48
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：Stupid:
Oh, 可别去说情儿，否则教授非怀疑你的职业道德不可
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't suggest hiding anything. Mr. Grey should present the cheating
paper first and make it clear to the professor that you don't think such a
cheating is excusable. The decision is up to the professor. But as the
TA, Mr. Grey should have the chance to tell the professor his
impression about the student. This could make some difference.
IP: Logged
ravaged
Junior Member 递交于03-06-2002 13:46
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for your own sake, gray, DO NOT TRY TO COVER FOR THEM!! as a teaching
assistant, you are an employee of the university, and that identity
comes before any affinity you might feel for your countrymen.
cheating is simply wrong. it's the only sin one can possibly commit
in academia. it's their responsibility not to cheat; it's yours to
report such cases to the professor. if all chinese cover for chinese,
when will we ever learn? i think what you have done for them is
dangerouly close to the acceptable line. remember that you have your
own ethical standards to live up to as a TA. if you do anything more
than this, your future at this school is in jeopardy.
BEING CHINESE IS NO EXCUSE FOR PLAGIARISM.
IP: Logged
shishi
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:42
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quote:
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来源于：howcome:
其实仔细想想这二位也没什么值得同情的，都能到米国来念书了，
想必也不是什么缺心眼儿少智慧的主儿。
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保不准是抄范文抄来的。
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howcome
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:36
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其实仔细想想这二位也没什么值得同情的，都能到米国来念书了，想必也不是什
么缺心眼儿少智慧的主儿。如今做出这样的事儿，就算他们不为做弊抄袭付出代
价，也该为愚蠢付出代价，否则不那么愚蠢的人们就没有活路了不是？
IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:30
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I would risk my job to fight fanatically for something that I can
relate to and believe in, but academic cheating is not one of them.
It's really the principle of things.
IP: Logged
Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 13:24
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Oh, 可别去说情儿，否则教授非怀疑你的职业道德不可。
IP: Logged
Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 13:22
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I can't believe you even discussed with other ppl. Now there's only 1
option: turn them in and let your professor to handle it.
If you'd have not discussed with others, you might be able to handle
it yourself.
IP: Logged
Confuse
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:21
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以前考试的时候，美国人不用说，都隔一个位子坐，书包放地下。扎堆坐一起要俺去
分开的，都是中国人。
不过美国学生跑来要分的多。
IP: Logged
howcome
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:21
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同意台风和木匠的意见。既然另一个TA不买账，可能现在教授和其他TA全知道
了。俺觉得现在GREY的唯一选择是把情况和矛盾上交到教授手里，念在同胞的份
上给他们好好说说情吧。
IP: Logged
howcome
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:14
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俺不同意你的观点。如果真闹到诉诸法律，老师和另一个TA出面作证了，GREY出
面不出面于结果如何关系不大，而且出面就会得罪同胞，不出面就会得罪老师，
怎么样也不会有皆大欢喜的结果。
俺们这里的一个比较好的私立学校出过几乎同样的事，两个中国人，男女朋友交
了同样的paper，是互相抄，还不是抄老师给的范文，情节比GREY说的轻。结果
是开除。两人不服，联合告到法院说是种族歧视，硬证据在校方手里，当然败
诉。
俺的意见是GREY同学可以找他们谈谈，让他们自己先看看怎么办。俺认为直接帮
他们中的一个把论文换成重写的不仅不是帮助他们，而变成了做弊的帮凶。一旦
事情闹大对GREY的前途也会有阴影。
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：void:
虽然这里处罚作弊很严格,可是法律程序也很严格.要是那两个作弊的人诉诸法
律,学校也会因为怕麻烦而从轻处罚的.这种事需要证据和证人,只有老师出面做
证才算.而且证人还不止需要一个.很麻烦. 只要你不出面作证,就是帮他了.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IP: Logged
木匠
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 12:41
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I believe many people on the forum, including myself, have TA's
experience back in graduate school. It only happened once in my
department. In that class, the assignment was to write a review for a
certain technology. Two students, both chinese unfortunately, was
charged of plagiarism simply becase they didn't give enough detailed
reference, plus they might each had a few sentences copied from
published articles. The latter was probably due to the language difficulty.
They both were given a "F" for the class in the end. In this case, they
were not actually trying to cheat, no making up results, no nothing if
looked upon by me at that time, and it is far less serious than literally
copying the whole sample paper, as in your case. However, the
punishment was serious: one of them lost his second year fellowship
due to this "F". I bet that guy will be super careful about what he write
next time.
As for your case, I agree with Typhoon: "To cheat is unethical, to copy
the same paper handed out by the prof is simple stupidity. ". Well said.
As to what you should do, I believe, besides the ethnical standard, your
reputation as a unbiased TA should be your first concern, since this is
directly related to your future career. Protecting yourself should always
be on top of your priority list, especially rightnow the news is a known
fact among almost all the TAs and perhaps the professor himself. They
are watching you, man, they are. And you are in hot water now. Even if
you did cover up for the bad guy, and they didn't report you, think about
the damage caused to your own image. Does it worth to protect
somebody just because he is a fellow chinese? I, just to speak for
myself, wouldn't do that.
One other concern is that you should becareful in handling the situation.
Don't get burned by either side. I can imagine how they will hate you if
they get severe punishment at the end. Since you have asked that guy
to rewrite a paper, you can tell him sth like:
Look, you know it and I know it, you made a stupit mistake. You copied
a paper which was the same one the professor gave me as the sample.
I might be able to cover sth else, but not this. Let's face it, u are in big
trouble, and I hope you should realize that I couldn't help too much in
this case. Othewise, I will be fired. What I can do to help you now is to
hand in your second paper and just hope the professor will take this as
your regretful gesture and give you a less severe punishment. I can
also say sth good for you. But I can't garranty anything since this case
is way beyond my control already. If you do want to show how sincere
you are, u might as well write a letter to the professor. I will be glad to
be the messanger. Or you might prefer to talk to him directly. It's totally
up to you. What do you think?"
Actually, to say sth good fpr his to the professor ( in another word, to
beg for mercy for him) is indeed a huge favor in such a sensitive
situation. Make sure he understands that.
IP: Logged
pearl
Super Member
递交于03-06-2002 12:39
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grey, 我觉得他们重新交了paper大概事情就可以过去了吧。有机会
的话你和那个中国同学谈谈吧。MBA的话，将来工作了整天要写
report，笔头不过关将来怎么谋生呢。他们从国内来，没有在米国
生活的经验，就靠着这两年好好练习。Wrting没什么诀窍，就是practice.
你和这个同学说说吧。至于做弊的危险，想来这个同学也知道了，以后
大概不敢了吧。Everybody deserves a second chance.
看了你开这个主题我挺感动的，觉得你的心肠很好，否则也不会为此
伤脑筋了。对了，我记得你在车库写的一个关于生活方式的帖子我一直
很喜欢，特别是那一句 "独自一个人心潮澎湃". stang好象给收了精华区
了。那时候还以为你是男生呢，现在才知道你是mm.
IP: Logged
jiezhu
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 12:31
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既然人家已经主动坦白了,还是应该给个机会,教授也不太会这么手狠.
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 12:29
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偶也这样想。偶甚至在想，他们会不会从来只做一份作业，交给不同的TA呢？偶都替
他们觉得后怕。
更恐怖的，他们是不是全体中国学生都有去年的PAPER，现在发现的只是冰山一角呢？
真的那样，中国人在偶学校里也不用想出头了。
这样取巧，占小便宜吃大亏的事，在偶们同胞里并不少见。偶难受。
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：kethy:
This really make people
doubt their personality. An MBA student will have to write so many
papers in their school life and probably in the future career, and if
this happened once, how could others trust you for this not happening
again?
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IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 12:23
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他们不知道TA有这篇范文，这篇范文也没发给他们。是给TA当样子GRADE用的。
偶的学生交了一篇新的。那个BOY也交了一篇给他的TA，说交错了。可是那个TA并不
买账，说可能是听到风声以后害怕了。
现在偶跟教授说学生又交了一篇PAPER，问他要不要给CREDIT。怎么处置，偶也真不
知道了。
拣了这么一个鱼头来摘，真正心烦意乱。偶决定出去买菜，估计回来事情都会SORT
OUT了。
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Stuka
Junior Member 递交于03-07-2002 13:44
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Gray, everybody here can see that you're a very nice girl,
considering about others situation from the bottom of your heart.
But here we are in a world with law and rules. Always there is no
much space for sentiment in many affairs. Make your own
judgement and don't get yourself hurt. Good luck!
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-07-2002 13:30
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Very likely.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：Typhoon:
Why's he looking for opinions then? There are well documented
guidelines for unethical academic practices. He could very well
could have handled it by the book. I'm just offering some
alternative theories here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-07-2002 12:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：Tyr:
I seriously doubt it.
The prof has no reason to look for a 台阶, or downplay the inccident.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why's he looking for opinions then? There are well documented
guidelines for unethical academic practices. He could very well
could have handled it by the book. I'm just offering some
alternative theories here.
IP: Logged
Tyr
Junior Member 递交于03-07-2002 12:12
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：Typhoon:
There might be another reason for his request of your
recommendations. He might be willing to downplay the incident and
was just looking for a 台阶. That would obviously be the best case
scenario . . . . *sigh*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I seriously doubt it.
The prof has no reason to look for a 台阶, or downplay the inccident.
IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-07-2002 12:04
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There might be another reason for his request of your
recommendations. He might be willing to downplay the incident and
was just looking for a 台阶. That would obviously be the best case
scenario . . . . *sigh*
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 12:00
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I toned down the email a bit and just sent it out. I am ready to get
it out of my system and move on. My own plate is pretty full too.
Cannot afford to be obsessed by this matter any more.
Thanks, all, for you support and suggestions. This is my first
extensive communication on a bbs. Very impressive indeed.
IP: Logged
kethy
Senior Member
递交于03-07-2002 10:03
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grey, don't be too depressed for this. You can tell yourself: since
they really made a mistake, they should pay for it. This is the thing
that nobody can do for them. As for the email, I think your email is
very well written too. Since you trust the professor and he is asking
for your thought, you can honestly tell they deserve a punishment,
but you hope they still get the chance to continue their school.
Don't let this take control of your emotions. They don't deserve it.
IP: Logged
hey
Junior Member 递交于03-07-2002 04:55
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Thank you for dealing it this way. Thanks for thinking of it this
way. Then forget it, no light can lighten the world. You will have
a peaceful mind anyway.
[这个帖子已经被hey修改过。(时间：03-07-2002).]
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 01:20
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不能怪偶势利，跟聪明人谈话就是舒服，怎么句句都跟小熨斗似的。
偶难受一天了，白白了。明天再发那EMAIL。
IP: Logged
pearl
Super Member
递交于03-07-2002 01:11
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I agree with Friday. Grey mm, I was really quite moved that you are
willing and you have put so much efforts to care about them. Just do
whateve you can, and that will be it. Don't get stressed out over this.
And, I also prey that those two Chinese students can survive this
turmoil and can seriously learn from this. Everybody makes mistakes
somewhere down the road. I mean everybody. And sometimes we
make very stupid mistakes. But everybody deserves a second chance,
if the mistake does not go extreme.
IP: Logged
Friday
Forum Leader
递交于03-07-2002 00:57
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Hey take it easy grey. It's just an annoying thing that happened to
occur in your TA session. Americans tend to treat people
individually, so don't burden yourself with the fact that those two
are Chinese. Have a good night sleep.
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 00:50
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Thanks Shanren. I was trying to appeal to his sympathy without
sounding overly pathetic. Also, it is true that the students may
break down. I deleted the examples I put in there--trying not to make
it a real threat. It is a very delicate balance there.
Let me polish it more. Really appreciate it, Shanren.
I wish I spent so much time and effort in my own research paper .
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：山人:
Very well written. However, i would turn down the part of
It seems to me more like a threat than reasoning. If it were me, a
slightly more focus on the hardship would be more of a choice.
Furthermore, I would like to suggest to give them a second chance.
[这个帖子已经被山人修改过。(时间：03-07-2002).]
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IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 00:42
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Thanks Pearl Friday and Typhoon...That is exactly why I have not sent
out the email yet. I agree that the suggestion part should be taken
out.
His decision is to refer the students to the program office, and it
is up to the assistant dean about what to do. He may want to pitch in
some suggestion though. He also wants to avoid too much trouble as
before the class started, he specifically inquired about possible
troublesome students.
Another agenda for him to invite my opinion--may be--related to the
fact that they are about to start dealing with the two doctoral
students from China le. If he feels I am a trustworthy source for
additional information, they might want my input on that matter too.
I am the only CHinese doctoral student in addition to the two in
question.
I feel tremendously pressured. I hope this is all my paronoia.
IP: Logged
山人
Senior Member
递交于03-07-2002 00:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very well written. However, i would turn down the part of
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am worried that if they are kicked out, they
will suffer from such bruised ego that their
whole life could be ruined. In extreme cases
they could become psychologically unstable and
be dangerous. Note that in our particular case,
a couple would go through this together, which
would make it harder to take as they could turn
nobody for support.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems to me more like a threat than reasoning. If it were me, a
slightly more focus on the hardship would be more of a choice.
Furthermore, I would like to suggest to give them a second chance.
[这个帖子已经被山人修改过。(时间：03-07-2002).]
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-07-2002 00:34
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Agree with pearl and Friday. You could just say something
like "please take this into your consideration".
IP: Logged
Friday
Forum Leader
递交于03-07-2002 00:27
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I, as a bystander, like the email. It is very well written and
presents a strong opinion about the whole incident. But I would tune
it down before sending it to the professor. No doubt he has his own
opinion and decisions seem to have already been made according to his
own judgement. He says he welcomes other thoughts but he surely will
not feel comfortable being adviced or even challenged. I'd take out
the suggestion part, or at least modify it.
IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-07-2002 00:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
来源于：grey:
I have been working with the Prof. for two years and plan to
invite him to be the co-chair of my committee. He is a very nice
person, and I think he wants to know how I think. Well, this is
honestly what I am thinking about.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then I am sure he will appreciate the candid nature of your email.
You have done all you can to help them out. 谋事在人, 成事在天.
Hope you feel better soon.
IP: Logged
pearl
Super Member
递交于03-07-2002 00:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grey, your email is very well written. But I guess playing the tone a little
down might work better.
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-07-2002 00:09
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I have been working with the Prof. for two years and plan to invite
him to be the co-chair of my committee. He is a very nice person, and
I think he wants to know how I think. Well, this is honestly what I
am thinking about.
I do tend to be too nice though.
IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 23:59
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quote:
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来源于：grey:
教授EMAIL给我，说They could be expelled completely or for, say,
one quarter. They could also receive an "F" grade in this
course. We'll try to decide on this relatively shortly. If
you have an opinion, I'd welcome it.
偶DRAFTED以下这个EMAIL，还没发给教授。偶把真名省略了。不知大家怎么想？
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How well does the prof know you? Does he regard you well? This is a
rather emotional email, not knowing him, I'm afraid I, or for that
matter most others on here, can't really offer much insight on the
issue. It's a tremondous injustice for you to go through this for
their wrong doings. I do wish you the best of luck.
IP: Logged
grey
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 23:34
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教授EMAIL给我，说They could be expelled completely or for, say, one
quarter. They could also receive an "F" grade in this
course. We'll try to decide on this relatively shortly. If
you have an opinion, I'd welcome it.
偶DRAFTED以下这个EMAIL，还没发给教授。偶把真名省略了。不知大家怎么想？
I agree that the students should be solely responsible for the
plagarism. They have to receive due punishment to learn to behave
properly. I have no idea about the student in xx's section, but yy
impressed me positively as she did well in another assignment and got
13 out of 15 for that assignment. Her class participation was good
too. It is very disappointing to see this misconduct on the zzz case.
On Tuesday afternoon when I told her that I wanted to talk to her
about the case write-up, she was very remorseful and admitted that
she erred before I confronted her. THen she submitted the second
paper, which I emailed you earlier this afternoon.
I do hate to see them being kicked out of school though. It is a
tremendous financial investment for a student to pursue an MBA
degree. For an international student, it has more impact on their
lives than their US classmates in the sense that it is more of a life-
changing opportunity. I am worried that if they are kicked out, they
will suffer from such bruised ego that their whole life could be
ruined. In extreme cases they could become psychologically unstable
and be dangerous. Note that in our particular case, a couple would go
through this together, which would make it harder to take as they
could turn nobody for support.
Therefore, if I were to handle this situation, I would suggest a less
severe penalty than expulsion. I dont know about the school policy,
but it would be wise to suggest maybe a probation.
Just my two cents. To be frank I was so bothered by the fact that
these students came from China, I was basically depressed ever since
I found out about it.
IP: Logged
丹儿
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 22:54
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quote:
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来源于：kethy:
I think here you are talking about cheating on an Engineering
area, like doing the homework or something.
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Cheating in engineering is taken extremely serious in my school.
Profs keep mentioning how copying someone else's work is considered
professional misconduct for Professional Engineer.
So copying small section (such as a diagram in a memo) will be
reported to prof. Any thing beyond that is brought to the associated
dean, and the student will be at least on probation until graduation.
IP: Logged
syringe
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 19:22
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我有一朋友,教授让他们做名词解释的作业.他就把书上原话抄上,竟然也算cheating
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grey
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 18:05
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偶没有跟BOY的TA谈。昨天也是跟自己朋友们私下里说的，并没有提他们的名字。
今天教授已经要BOY去谈话，并且要上报院里了。教授问偶要偶这个学生交的两篇
PAPER看，说“I DONT WANT HER TO GET AWAY WITH IT IF SHE STOLE THE
PAPER FROM ANOTHER STUDENT”。
看来再交的这个PAPER什么作用也没起。偶这个教授还是偶知道的里面最NICE的一
个。偶没有办法了。
开车逛了四个小时，心情仍旧乱糟糟。不晓得为什么自己有深重的羞耻感。
谢谢大家的建议。FOR ME THIS IS A LOSE-LOSE SITUATION。
quote:
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来源于：Dante:
Well, maybe to late now, since you already talked to the spouse's TA
(since you know that spouse turned in the same paper to that TA).
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IP: Logged
Funky
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 17:37
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In our department, a bunch of Indian students cheated.
IP: Logged
pearl
Super Member
递交于03-06-2002 16:20
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quote:
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来源于：Dante:
What Stang suggested is a good idea. It should be part of the
FAQs/survival guide, together with "how to find an apartment", "how
to open a bank account", "how to buy a car", etc.
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We got an international student survival guide as I attended my MBA
program. Besides listing what you put above, it conspicuously put one
item "Please bath frequently to make yourself pleasantly smelled" (I
couldn't remember the exact wording). I am serious. Oh well, I was
not feeling offended at the moment. I figured out that this item might be
targeting a different ethnic group. But I was still amazed that they would
dare put it there. Maybe the odor issue had got too much a headache to
ignore. .
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Stangboy
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 16:11
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Which reminds me of one thing: in our TA orientation, our ever so
humorous bio. 101 professor said to us: if it's true love, please,
guys, wail till the semester is over.
That kinda left a lasting impression.
As for the issue of plagerism, I don't think my school gave us any
details orally in the orietation, or maybe as others, my English
wasn't good enough to catch all of it. Details like using quotation
marks for original quotes, cite authors whenever you can and always
use your own words whenever quotation marks are not used, have to be
acquired from experience, some people learned them the hard way, I
fortunately learned them from others' heartbreaking experience.
Undergrads may receive more comprehensive instructions, but grad
students are sometimes assumed aware of the them. Call it negligence
on the University side, but that's the reality in some schools.
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 16:05
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Two of the issues that are stressed the most are:
1. How to deal with cheating students;
2. Don't get yourself into a sex harrassment case;
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 16:02
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For those graduate students who do TA will take it more seriously
since they both teachers and students at the same time, and they have
training/workshop about this particular issue.
For those unders, MBA students or any other students without TA
experience, they might not know how serious it is.
What Stang suggested is a good idea. It should be part of the
FAQs/survival guide, together with "how to find an apartment", "how
to open a bank account", "how to buy a car", etc.
IP: Logged
shishi
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 15:55
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quote:
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来源于：Stangboy:
How many people actually read the booklets? A bit emphasis
doesn't hurt, and a few examples will leave a lasting
impression.
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new students have a week long orientation and they read the
thing several times to us. they also tell us what we should
do if find students cheat if we are TA. (they also tell us
don't date students... )
of course, more emphasis won't hurt.
IP: Logged
Stangboy
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 15:52
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How many people actually read the booklets? A bit emphasis doesn't
hurt, and a few examples will leave a lasting impression.
IP: Logged
shishi
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 15:26
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quote:
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来源于：仙人掌:
同意四糖，我觉得新生入学时真应该讲一讲这事。在国内，把作
业给人抄是表示交情的一种表现，在这就真是上纲上线的事了。
一般要是知道后果会这么严重，我想应该没人敢这么做了。
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our school surely has this in the booklets given to new
students. I don't think there are schools don't mention
this.
IP: Logged
仙人掌
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 15:20
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同意四糖，我觉得新生入学时真应该讲一讲这事。在国内，把作
业给人抄是表示交情的一种表现，在这就真是上纲上线的事了。
一般要是知道后果会这么严重，我想应该没人敢这么做了。
IP: Logged
a.k.a.
Junior Member 递交于03-06-2002 15:16
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quote:
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来源于：木匠:
As a metter of fact, when I applied for graduate school years ago, I
benifitted from the good reputition sb else set up in that department.
That student was from the same department in the same university I
went to in china.
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I've benefitted from the same thing too. The student before me was a
classmate of mine in college. She excelled in all areas and impressed everyone
in the department. I am glad to say I was the second in a string of 7 students in
6 years admmited to the department from our not-so-famous alma mater. In
fact, when the program was overwhelmed by >500 Chinese applicants each
year and decided only recruit from a list of ten institutes in China, my school was
listed even it is nowhere near top ten status.
In my department, two students were forced to quit because of cheating. One
of them was a Chinese student.
[这个帖子已经被a.k.a.修改过。(时间：03-06-2002).]
IP: Logged
木匠
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 15:09
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quote:
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来源于：Stupid:
Do not tell the professor his impression at all. Just stating the
facts and let him handle it from there. 别画蛇添足。
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I know, I know. 理智上是应该不多向 BOSS 废话的， 只是 有 时
心太软。
My heart is in right place, but the mind is not.
Is that how it is said?
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Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 14:57
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ＣＢＣ。Canadian Born Chinese and Chinese Born Chinese
quote:
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来源于：Dante:
ABC bah?
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[这个帖子已经被Stupid修改过。(时间：03-06-2002).]
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Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:55
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ABC bah?
quote:
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来源于：Stupid:
俺以前带ＴＡ的时候，所有中国学生都是最好的，当时有５个学生，就是前五名。
好的真是没办法说。不过也许是我带的班是ＭＥＤ预课班吧。
俺当时考试的时候，老师发了卷子转身就走。半小时后回来回答几个问题，然后又走
了。完全没人监考，也没见到谁作弊啊。
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IP: Logged
定远舰
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:53
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出国人数多了，水平就下降。
我知道有T，G，成绩单，推荐信全部伪造出来
读MBA的主。真是羞与这种人为伍。
quote:
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来源于：Stupid:
俺以前带ＴＡ的时候，所有中国学生都是最好的，当时有５个学生，就是前
五名。
好的真是没办法说。不过也许是我带的班是ＭＥＤ预课班吧。
俺当时考试的时候，老师发了卷子转身就走。半小时后回来回答几个问题，然后
又走
了。完全没人监考，也没见到谁作弊啊。
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IP: Logged
Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 14:48
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俺以前带ＴＡ的时候，所有中国学生都是最好的，当时有５个学生，就是前五名。
好的真是没办法说。不过也许是我带的班是ＭＥＤ预课班吧。
俺当时考试的时候，老师发了卷子转身就走。半小时后回来回答几个问题，然后又走
了。完全没人监考，也没见到谁作弊啊。
IP: Logged
Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 14:45
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Do not tell the professor his impression at all. Just stating the
facts and let him handle it from there. 别画蛇添足。
quote:
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来源于：木匠:
I didn't suggest hiding anything. Mr. Grey should present the
cheating
paper first and make it clear to the professor that you don't think
such a
cheating is excusable. The decision is up to the professor. But as
the
TA, Mr. Grey should have the chance to tell the professor his
impression about the student. This could make some difference.
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IP: Logged
定远舰
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:40
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我当TA的时候判作业很仔细，经常发现抄袭的，都是老美。
我一般是被抄的减半，抄的0分。一般老美抄袭都是不CARE
的UNDER，所以得零蛋也不在乎，所以一直没有问题。直到有
一个家伙居然敢来信质问我。我当即不客气地指出，“你丫
抄袭！既然你丫还敢不服，我决定送教授那里了。”这斯
立刻跑来求情。还好我一向心软，就算了。我觉得在美
的中国人要想正名，首先从自己作起，对待同胞也要光明磊落。
这事你要隐瞒其实反倒是在伤害整个中国人这个群体。
[这个帖子已经被定远舰修改过。(时间：03-06-2002).]
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Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:31
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Well, I was kinda teasing, since Grey emphasized so many times about
chinese in his post.
quote:
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来源于：uh_oh:
难道抄的只是中国学生吗? 好象是今年年初的时候看过一篇新闻说
某个学校(忘了是加拿大还是美国)的某个课程的上百个学生发现抄袭
同一篇文章,结果全部开除.不可能那些学生全都是中国人吧?!!!
当然,很有可能那篇新闻不是真的, 毕竟上百人抄同一篇文章听起来太假.
但是不可否认的是抄作业的不只是中国人也还有其他人.别一想到抄作业
就跟中国学生连在一起.
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IP: Logged
木匠
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:20
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I think Mr. Grey has a good heart and wish to help fellow chinese if he
could. But I really don't think covering-up would do any good to the
reputation of chinese student as a whole.
As a metter of fact, when I applied for graduate school years ago, I
benifitted from the good reputition sb else set up in that department.
That student was from the same department in the same university I
went to in china. We didn't know each though. He came to united states
and joined the graduate school one year before I applied for the same
program. His professor was the chair of the committee that is in charge
of selecting perspective students from numeous application letters. I
had a friend in the same university and he went to that professor to ask
for the admitting results. That professor aparently didn't remember my
name at the begining. But as he pulled out my materials, he said:" Oh, I
have a student from the same place. And that student is great. OK, I
don't mind have another good student in the department. I will suggets
this guy in next week's meeting." And I got the fellowship.
After I started my graduate study, I figured out who that person was. He
migt never know what he had done for me, but I always feel gratefulness
for him to setup such a good impression among Americans, not only for
himself, but also for all the other chinese students to come. God works
in a mysterious way.
The point here is: setting up a good repution is more benificial to your
fellow chinese than covering up some stupid mistake for them.
IP: Logged
uh_oh
Junior Member 递交于03-06-2002 14:17
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quote:
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来源于：Dante:
Or I didn't have many Chinese
students?
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难道抄的只是中国学生吗? 好象是今年年初的时候看过一篇新闻说
某个学校(忘了是加拿大还是美国)的某个课程的上百个学生发现抄袭
同一篇文章,结果全部开除.不可能那些学生全都是中国人吧?!!!
当然,很有可能那篇新闻不是真的, 毕竟上百人抄同一篇文章听起来太假.
但是不可否认的是抄作业的不只是中国人也还有其他人.别一想到抄作业
就跟中国学生连在一起.
IP: Logged
Stangboy
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 14:16
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我以前上计算机的课的时候班里的中国同学几乎都是一起做作业，也算是cheating,
上AI的时候有六个人被教授抓住，不过后来从轻处理了。感觉在国内上大学的时候讲
什么ethics是要被人嘲笑的，所以很多人到美国以后犯了大忌自己还不知道。以前系
里有个女生顺手从一篇Cell article上照搬了几句话，被教授给了个F。看她哭成那
样真是可怜她。各校的CSSA应该把这种事情的严重性列入Survival Guide里面，每年
给新生讲讲。各位还在念书的，应该给本校的CSSA建议一下。
IP: Logged
ravaged
Junior Member 递交于03-06-2002 14:12
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btw not all cases of plagiarism result in expulsion (though this case
sounds pretty serious). there are appropriate procedures, and what
they get from the academic committee is simply beyond your control.
plus, would you be willing to lie for them in a formal hearing too?
just give it up.
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:11
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If you wanna Gong Shi Gong Ban, just pass the hot potato to your
professor.
If you wanna give your student a second chance, because you think
that they are fresh out of China and don't know how things work in
US, you could hint him/her (just your student, not the spouse) in
someway, so s/he could use some excuse to retract the homework. They
are smart ppl, so the spouse will know what to do on his/her part.
Well, maybe to late now, since you already talked to the spouse's TA
(since you know that spouse turned in the same paper to that TA).
IP: Logged
saturn
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 14:00
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没有什么好讲的,中国学生抄袭,换了我会看一下,如果只是语言上的抄袭,退回
重做,
属于内容,思路的明显抄袭,该砸办就咋办
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:59
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Don't remember that any of the students I TAed cheated. Maybe all the
classes I taught were experiments. Or I didn't have many Chinese
students?
Some of them did take shortcuts or were simply too lazy. But that
will be reflected in their scores.
IP: Logged
Dante
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:51
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You already threw them into sh*t holes by talking about it to other
TAs.
The best thing that you should have done is to warn your student and
ask him to resubmit. It is too late for anything now.
quote:
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来源于：grey:
偶也知道他们不容易。这两夫妇齐齐自费来读MBA，也算不错了。不知怎么拿到去
年的
PAPER，就交上来了。偏偏这篇被抄的PAPER就是教授给TA的范文--他们的眼光是好
的。
他们两个在不同的SECTION，同一个教授，两个不同的TA。太明显了，装做没发现的
话，他们的PAPER会成范文，教授只要溜一小眼就发现了，倒会显得偶这个TA是吃白
饭的。再说，另一个SECTION的TA，一个法国人，也不会视而不见。
昨天问了几个其他的TA，一个说，他们这么大人了，自己不对自己负责，怎么能叫别
人对他们负责呢。直接上交教授得了。
另一个从香港来，说，他们拿到去年的PAPER，知道怎么是一篇好PAPER，已经是很好
的INFORMATION。也不过是6页的PAPER，自己写就是了。怎么这么懒惰。
再一个说，要么TOTALLY IGNORE，要么就交给教授处理。STAY OUT OF TROUBLE。
如果偶COVER不成，美国人会对偶的ETHICAL STANDARDS产生疑问。这个，偶以后还
要不要饭碗了。这是关乎一辈子的事呢。
听着都有道理。TOTALLY IGNORE是不可能了，牵涉到至少两个学生，两个TA，雷同的
PAPER，还都是抄的。
可是听着人家批判他们，偶自己心里也感到羞耻。闹出来以后，对这里所有的中国学
生都是一个NEGATIVE IMPACT。弄不好还会夫妻双双把家还。也太惨烈了。
另一个SECTION的，也是一个INTERNATIONAL学生，偶教授也没警告，也没讨价还
价，直接给零分，交给PROGRAM OFFICE。今天DEAN跟学生谈话。
偶让这个学生又交了一篇自己写的PAPER，不知能不能帮到他们。
到现在为止，还替他们瞒着名字。成了偶的一块心病。
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IP: Logged
木匠
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:48
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quote:
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来源于：Stupid:
Oh, 可别去说情儿，否则教授非怀疑你的职业道德不可
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I didn't suggest hiding anything. Mr. Grey should present the cheating
paper first and make it clear to the professor that you don't think such a
cheating is excusable. The decision is up to the professor. But as the
TA, Mr. Grey should have the chance to tell the professor his
impression about the student. This could make some difference.
IP: Logged
ravaged
Junior Member 递交于03-06-2002 13:46
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for your own sake, gray, DO NOT TRY TO COVER FOR THEM!! as a teaching
assistant, you are an employee of the university, and that identity
comes before any affinity you might feel for your countrymen.
cheating is simply wrong. it's the only sin one can possibly commit
in academia. it's their responsibility not to cheat; it's yours to
report such cases to the professor. if all chinese cover for chinese,
when will we ever learn? i think what you have done for them is
dangerouly close to the acceptable line. remember that you have your
own ethical standards to live up to as a TA. if you do anything more
than this, your future at this school is in jeopardy.
BEING CHINESE IS NO EXCUSE FOR PLAGIARISM.
IP: Logged
shishi
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:42
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quote:
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来源于：howcome:
其实仔细想想这二位也没什么值得同情的，都能到米国来念书了，
想必也不是什么缺心眼儿少智慧的主儿。
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保不准是抄范文抄来的。
IP: Logged
howcome
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:36
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其实仔细想想这二位也没什么值得同情的，都能到米国来念书了，想必也不是什
么缺心眼儿少智慧的主儿。如今做出这样的事儿，就算他们不为做弊抄袭付出代
价，也该为愚蠢付出代价，否则不那么愚蠢的人们就没有活路了不是？
IP: Logged
Typhoon
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:30
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I would risk my job to fight fanatically for something that I can
relate to and believe in, but academic cheating is not one of them.
It's really the principle of things.
IP: Logged
Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 13:24
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Oh, 可别去说情儿，否则教授非怀疑你的职业道德不可。
IP: Logged
Stupid
Forum Leader
递交于03-06-2002 13:22
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I can't believe you even discussed with other ppl. Now there's only 1
option: turn them in and let your professor to handle it.
If you'd have not discussed with others, you might be able to handle
it yourself.
IP: Logged
Confuse
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:21
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以前考试的时候，美国人不用说，都隔一个位子坐，书包放地下。扎堆坐一起要俺去
分开的，都是中国人。
不过美国学生跑来要分的多。
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howcome
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:21
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同意台风和木匠的意见。既然另一个TA不买账，可能现在教授和其他TA全知道
了。俺觉得现在GREY的唯一选择是把情况和矛盾上交到教授手里，念在同胞的份
上给他们好好说说情吧。
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howcome
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 13:14
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俺不同意你的观点。如果真闹到诉诸法律，老师和另一个TA出面作证了，GREY出
面不出面于结果如何关系不大，而且出面就会得罪同胞，不出面就会得罪老师，
怎么样也不会有皆大欢喜的结果。
俺们这里的一个比较好的私立学校出过几乎同样的事，两个中国人，男女朋友交
了同样的paper，是互相抄，还不是抄老师给的范文，情节比GREY说的轻。结果
是开除。两人不服，联合告到法院说是种族歧视，硬证据在校方手里，当然败
诉。
俺的意见是GREY同学可以找他们谈谈，让他们自己先看看怎么办。俺认为直接帮
他们中的一个把论文换成重写的不仅不是帮助他们，而变成了做弊的帮凶。一旦
事情闹大对GREY的前途也会有阴影。
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来源于：void:
虽然这里处罚作弊很严格,可是法律程序也很严格.要是那两个作弊的人诉诸法
律,学校也会因为怕麻烦而从轻处罚的.这种事需要证据和证人,只有老师出面做
证才算.而且证人还不止需要一个.很麻烦. 只要你不出面作证,就是帮他了.
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木匠
Junior Member
递交于03-06-2002 12:41
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I believe many people on the forum, including myself, have TA's
experience back in graduate school. It only happened once in my
department. In that class, the assignment was to write a review for a
certain technology. Two students, both chinese unfortunately, was
charged of plagiarism simply becase they didn't give enough detailed
reference, plus they might each had a few sentences copied from
published articles. The latter was probably due to the language difficulty.
They both were given a "F" for the class in the end. In this case, they
were not actually trying to cheat, no making up results, no nothing if
looked upon by me at that time, and it is far less serious than literally
copying the whole sample paper, as in your case. However, the
punishment was serious: one of them lost his second year fellowship
due to this "F". I bet that guy will be super careful about what he write
next time.
As for your case, I agree with Typhoon: "To cheat is unethical, to copy
the same paper handed out by the prof is simple stupidity. ". Well said.
As to what you should do, I believe, besides the ethnical standard, your
reputation as a unbiased TA should be your first concern, since this is
directly related to your future career. Protecting yourself should always
be on top of your priority list, especially rightnow the news is a known
fact among almost all the TAs and perhaps the professor himself. They
are watching you, man, they are. And you are in hot water now. Even if
you did cover up for the bad guy, and they didn't report you, think about
the damage caused to your own image. Does it worth to protect
somebody just because he is a fellow chinese? I, just to speak for
myself, wouldn't do that.
One other concern is that you should becareful in handling the situation.
Don't get burned by either side. I can imagine how they will hate you if
they get severe punishment at the end. Since you have asked that guy
to rewrite a paper, you can tell him sth like:
Look, you know it and I know it, you made a stupit mistake. You copied
a paper which was the same one the professor gave me as the sample.
I might be able to cover sth else, but not this. Let's face it, u are in big
trouble, and I hope you should realize that I couldn't help too much in
this case. Othewise, I will be fired. What I can do to help you now is to
hand in your second paper and just hope the professor will take this as
your regretful gesture and give you a less severe punishment. I can
also say sth good for you. But I can't garranty anything since this case
is way beyond my control already. If you do want to show how sincere
you are, u might as well write a letter to the professor. I will be glad to
be the messanger. Or you might prefer to talk to him directly. It's totally
up to you. What do you think?"
Actually, to say sth good fpr his to the professor ( in another word, to
beg for mercy for him) is indeed a huge favor in such a sensitive
situation. Make sure he understands that.
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pearl
Super Member
递交于03-06-2002 12:39
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grey, 我觉得他们重新交了paper大概事情就可以过去了吧。有机会
的话你和那个中国同学谈谈吧。MBA的话，将来工作了整天要写
report，笔头不过关将来怎么谋生呢。他们从国内来，没有在米国
生活的经验，就靠着这两年好好练习。Wrting没什么诀窍，就是practice.
你和这个同学说说吧。至于做弊的危险，想来这个同学也知道了，以后
大概不敢了吧。Everybody deserves a second chance.
看了你开这个主题我挺感动的，觉得你的心肠很好，否则也不会为此
伤脑筋了。对了，我记得你在车库写的一个关于生活方式的帖子我一直
很喜欢，特别是那一句 "独自一个人心潮澎湃". stang好象给收了精华区
了。那时候还以为你是男生呢，现在才知道你是mm.
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jiezhu
Senior Member
递交于03-06-2002 12:31
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既然人家已经主动坦白了,还是应该给个机会,教授也不太会这么手狠.
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grey
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 12:29
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偶也这样想。偶甚至在想，他们会不会从来只做一份作业，交给不同的TA呢？偶都替
他们觉得后怕。
更恐怖的，他们是不是全体中国学生都有去年的PAPER，现在发现的只是冰山一角呢？
真的那样，中国人在偶学校里也不用想出头了。
这样取巧，占小便宜吃大亏的事，在偶们同胞里并不少见。偶难受。
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来源于：kethy:
This really make people
doubt their personality. An MBA student will have to write so many
papers in their school life and probably in the future career, and if
this happened once, how could others trust you for this not happening
again?
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grey
Freshman 递交于03-06-2002 12:23
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他们不知道TA有这篇范文，这篇范文也没发给他们。是给TA当样子GRADE用的。
偶的学生交了一篇新的。那个BOY也交了一篇给他的TA，说交错了。可是那个TA并不
买账，说可能是听到风声以后害怕了。
现在偶跟教授说学生又交了一篇PAPER，问他要不要给CREDIT。怎么处置，偶也真不
知道了。
拣了这么一个鱼头来摘，真正心烦意乱。偶决定出去买菜，估计回来事情都会SORT
OUT了。
