好笑的基督教

关于宗教与科学的观点,换个说法再说一遍。在如何认识客观世界上,俺认为宗教与科学的本质差别是自顶向下和自下向上两种完全不同的方法。它们的实际关系是双向的:宗教可以成为科学家思想的源泉,以及信心的基础,但是宗教不能称为科学研究的证据。反映到进化论的例子,人可以信仰圣经中万物神创的教导,可以从圣经获得信心,但是圣经不能作为质疑进化论的依据,必须用科学的方法来;科学当然可以也必须拒绝将圣经做为证据,但是对于源自宗教,但不以宗教为手段的质疑,必须客观对待。同时无神论不应该成为科学的前提,科学的起点是科学的哲学方法,由此可能可以检验神是否存在

1633年的伽里略事件中,宗教越界了,对科学干扰。对进化论的批判,只要用科学的语言进行,不管动机如何,科学界必须客观对待。否则不是宗教方的问题,而是科学界的过敏。在此楼,俺摘选的科学家言论,除非粗心忽略,除了一开始7位诺奖得主有基督教徒以外,其他一概遵循三个原则:(1)著名,有足够份量的科学家(2)非基督教徒,至少简单的Google没有发现他的宗教倾向(3)尽量选用明确支持进化论的科学家的观点

俺在此楼的主旨是,科学(进化论)必须通过科学的检验。宗教(俺仅指基督教)当然与客观世界息息相关,基督教当然可以接受,也欢迎科学的检验,唯一的困难在于,当拿人的逻辑来检验宗教时,如何不受现世价值观的干扰;拿科学检验宗教时,如何确保科学用“足够正确的知识”?现在就是在质疑,进化论是否可以作为足够正确的知识来检验圣经

在此楼质疑进化论中,如果你认为存在什么宗教问题,可以直接指出来,否则这样绕了半天都在概念里面转,出不去

关于俺收集的质疑进化论意见,如果你觉得哪里有问题,非常欢迎具体指出来。可能有点误会的是,俺进楼完全没有提倡intelligent design的打算,也没有这个必要。俺虚伪的逻辑是:同源进化不成立,不等于神创论成立。逻辑上这句话成立,但事实上可能没有人这么想。这仅是在帮俺缩小吵架范围。走了一些弯路,俺的思路是:

1)一开始引用一些诺奖得主的言论,证明进化论得到科学界压倒性的支持可能仅是一个表面现象,一些真正科学家是存疑的--不在于细节,而在根本问题
2)分析近20年来生物与医学诺奖得主获奖原因,希望得到一个感性认识:今天科学界对生物学,特别是遗传的了解究竟有多深?是否足以支持宏进化理论?
3)引用1986年和2005年两封科学界,包括近百名诺奖得主签字的支持进化论的信,证明科学界对进化论的态度是“不可置疑”的真理,而不是科学假设
4)引用一些一流的科学家对生命起源的质疑,和相关的最新科学成就,证明non-life -- life的生命起源目前完全在假设阶段,同时有足够份量的声音在讲,这是不可能的
5)收集进化论阵营内对进化过渡化石的不同意见,以及后面会展示的进化论者之间的论战,借以显现宏进化理论的成熟程度,以及驳斥方舟子之类对过渡化石过于简化的搪塞
6)后面会尽力证明进化论是如何自顶向下,而不是从下往上的,以及分析科学界认定同源进化必然存在的根基

关于你提到的终极问题:神的生命也好,外星文明的生命也好,生命是哪来的。俺赞成将地球生命来源归于外星文明并没有解决问题,因为外星文明同样存在自发产生或者神创的问题。神的生命从哪里来?俺认为人的理性是有限的,人没有能力思考这个问题,俺跳过


这涉及到两个问题,重复前面帖子:

1、质疑的不是无线电传输千分之一到百万分之一误码率改进的问题,而是能不能通的问题。换句话讲,进化论者凭什么认定进化论的“进化”不影响同源进化的基本结论?
2、科学界认定进化论是“不可置疑”的真理,尽管承认进化论需要“完善”。这暗示着进化论是一个自顶向下的东西:先确定结论,再研究building blocks,因为这个结论先是作为一个假想提出来,并没有经过其他途径严密证明同源进化必然发生,所以它有了宗教的属性



我们用完全不同的approach来看待这个问题。对于进化论,俺用“科学”的方法来决定是否接受,而不是从“哲学”的角度;关于信仰,俺没有预设神“肯定不存在”,俺确实不知道一个人如何判别神是否存在,但俺肯定不是从“哲学”出发。这是根本问题。神是否存在,影响了人对客观存在完全不同的看法。但正如你讲,人对客观世界的认识,对神是否存在的问题又会产生巨大的影响。这是鸡和蛋的问题,俺扯不清楚的
[FONT=宋体]谢谢。首先有个建议,既然对你来说,宗教仅仅是指基督教,那么在仅仅指基督教的情况下最好就直接用基督教一词,而不要用宗教一词,否则很容易引起误解。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]世上有无数宗教派别,其本质其实跟科学类似,都是一个世界观,错也好,对也好,粗陋也好,高深也好,都反映了一种对客观世界的认识。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]不清楚你为什么会提到“无神论不应该成为科学的前提”,我好像还没有看到哪个人积极提倡过这种说法。科学的起点与宗教的起点一样,都是眼前的客观世界,前者试图通过观察、猜想、验证等手段来不断加深拓宽对客观世界的理解,试图解释客观世界为何是这个样子,所以科学的特征是动态的知识累积,就像雪球越滚越大,大家都在努力朝前推动,希望滚出一个更大更圆的雪球,甚至不惜抛弃旧的雪球重新开始滚过;相比之下,后者特征可以说是静止的,所有宗教对客观世界的认识,单神论也好,多神论也好,像佛教那样的无神论也好,同样是通过观察猜想得到的,但一个雪球成型之后马上就被信徒当作世上唯一货真价实或者最大或者最圆或者最完美的雪球放进了冰箱保存起来,不容置疑,希望一代一代传下去。这才是宗教和科学的本质差别?[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]我也不清楚你下面这句话的意思:“[/FONT][FONT=宋体]基督教当然可以接受,也欢迎科学的检验,唯一的困难在于,当拿人的逻辑来检验宗教时,如何不受现世价值观的干扰[/FONT][FONT=宋体]” 。人的逻辑?难道你知道这个世上还有其他非人的逻辑?超人的逻辑?任何宗教,任何概念,任何认识,都是“人的逻辑”的产物。脱离了人,脱离了人的逻辑,哪来宗教,哪来“圣经”?[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]你关于进化论讨论的思路,我觉得有些打“稻草人”之嫌。与世上绝大多数现象类似,比如生物呈现多样化、宗教呈现多样化等,关于进化论的立场同样是多样化,基本上从完全支持到绝对反对之间的所有“灰色地带”都有人在发表看法。也许有许多科学家真的认为进化论是毋庸置疑的真理,但也一定有许多科学家仍然把它视为科学假设。我在前面提到过,进化论只是整个有限宇宙演化的局部细节,你如果不知道整个宇宙的演化过程,没有看清楚全貌,也就很难断定这个局部细节究竟是胳膊肘还是屁股沟。你引用的所有人士,诺奖得主也好,一流科学家也好,没有一个人知道整个有限宇宙演化的全貌,所以他们的声音哪怕全部加起来恐怕还是不够“份量”。在这些人的言论中,我察觉到的不是什么宗教问题,而是各人各自怀有的世界观宇宙观,但没有一个是完整正确的。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]“人的理性是有限的”?人没有能力思考关于“神的生命”的问题?只要是“人的逻辑”的产物,人的理性当然有能力思考,不必担心什么限度、自己画地为牢。不用预设神肯定不存在,恰恰相反,就让我们预设你说的神肯定存在好了,如果一个神不够,我们甚至可以预设两个神,三个神,一万个神,一亿个神,请便,但那又怎样,这个神或者这些神也不过是一团能量罢了,跟阿猫阿狗、跟一堆牛粪没有任何本质区别,都是能量存在的一部分,都是能量存在的形式之一。所谓神创,不过是能量转换而已;所谓神的生命,也不过是能量守恒而已。或者你说的神是个无能的家伙?[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]世上万物,正负电子而已。整个有限宇宙,远在大爆炸之前处于最小状态的时候,只是一对相互光速旋转而其整体本身也在旋转的正负电子而已。接下来的一系列分裂和指数级扩张,奠定了今天宏观宇宙的[/FONT][FONT=宋体]fractal结构基础(基本上以千为单位,与rosehip提到过的佛教里的“大千世界”不谋而合,但不只“三千世界”,应该有27千),直至发生大爆炸形成宏观宇宙。有限宇宙扩张至最大限度之后,又会在内部系统的旋转和其本身整体旋转的相互作用下开始收缩,重新回到最小状态,然后再开始扩张过程,完成自我解释。其间所有形式的进化存在,不光是同源于正负电子对,还同归于正负电子对。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]这不是鸡和蛋的问题,更像是条衔尾蛇([/FONT]Ouroboros[FONT=宋体])。[/FONT]
 
科学家的语言不等于科学语言,他们完全有自由在科学规则之外随便发表意见,您的引用恰恰是科学家在科学规则之外的自由表态。如果愿意接受其他人的质疑或质疑别人,至少通过科学论文而不是一般媒体来实现。

Science和Nature上面发表的文章,正式出版的书也不算“科学的语言”?俺的引用基本都列了出处,可以回头去查查,仅有少数来自interview的谈话。不过,回答媒体的采访表达的观点不能算科学家对科学问题的态度?:confused:

同时,作为支持证据用的引用,除了意外疏忽,俺仅挑看起来很有分量的无神论科学家,并且优先挑进化论科学家的观点。

I am interested to see if anyone can challenge this statement DIRECTLY.:)
 
... ... 罗列科学家们的站队表态 ... ... 为了嘲笑科学家们为什么那么坚信进化论 ... ...

我大致看了下你收集的各种人士对进化论提出的意见。用“理性的,不诉之于权威的”眼光来判断,许多批评观点逻辑都有问题

多谢朋友们有耐心看这些“又臭又长”的帖子。俺懵懵懂懂撞进楼时没有思路,后来想法一直在变,很多帖子很是混淆。放假期间才初步形成一个完整的思路

事实上不管是科学家们支持进化论的statements、美国科学院的小册子,或者方舟、Stephen Jay Gould,他们的态度非常明确,那就是同源进化这个结论是“肯定发生”、“不可置疑”的,这方面的证据是overwhelming的, 根本无须讨论同源进化是否存在,仅仅需要完善对同源进化过程的理解

这是一个严肃的话题,至少对俺来说是。俺是科学盲+半数理化盲,但不会无知到试图通过简单罗列科学家的站队来反证、支持科学问题,或者通过零星列举一些科学家的观点来推翻一个科学界“共识”的庞大的科学结论;也不会无聊到去嘲笑任何人。俺之前和未来的技术引用,将服务于对下面两段话的证明:

1、科学家们对同源进化的过程、证据存在差别巨大的不同理解 --不是细节,而是根本/大问题上 --> 同源进化理论本身很不成熟
2、事实上上述这些人/机构依赖于这些没有达成共识的理论/证据来判断同源进化“肯定发生”,而不是(或者不多)通过第二种渠道的证明来下这个结论 --> 所以同源进化这个结论站在极不坚实的基础上

俺的终极目标是证明--至少能够说服自己,进化论是科学界的一个信仰
 
多谢朋友们有耐心看这些“又臭又长”的帖子。俺懵懵懂懂撞进楼时没有思路,后来想法一直在变,很多帖子很是混淆。放假期间才初步形成一个完整的思路

事实上不管是科学家们支持进化论的statements、美国科学院的小册子,或者方舟、Stephen Jay Gould,他们的态度非常明确,那就是同源进化这个结论是“肯定发生”、“不可置疑”的,这方面的证据是overwhelming的, 根本无须讨论同源进化是否存在,仅仅需要完善对同源进化过程的理解

这是一个严肃的话题,至少对俺来说是。俺是科学盲+半数理化盲,但不会无知到试图通过简单罗列科学家的站队来反证、支持科学问题,或者通过零星列举一些科学家的观点来推翻一个科学界“共识”的庞大的科学结论;也不会无聊到去嘲笑任何人。俺之前和未来的技术引用,将服务于对下面两段话的证明:

1、科学家们对同源进化的过程、证据存在差别巨大的不同理解 --不是细节,而是根本/大问题上 --> 同源进化理论本身很不成熟
2、事实上上述这些人/机构依赖于这些没有达成共识的理论/证据来判断同源进化“肯定发生”,而不是(或者不多)通过第二种渠道的证明来下这个结论 --> 所以同源进化这个结论站在极不坚实的基础上

俺的终极目标是证明--至少能够说服自己,进化论是科学界的一个信仰

进化论早已经完成了从一个科学假设到宗教信仰的“进化” - 它唯一的价值,也就是为无神论提供了一个支撑,尽管这个支撑已经摇摇欲坠。

科学史上曾经另有一次很大的有关生命起源的争论,那就是违背圣经的生命自生说和符合圣经的生命产生生命说。当时的“科学界”也是认为有 overwelming的“科学证据”来支持生命自生说。比如说,麦芽汁会“自然而然”地发酵或者腐败 - 当时已经知道食品发酵腐败是微生物生命活动的结果。当然,食品也会自然而然地生出蛆虫苍蝇 ......

偏偏有一些倔强的基督徒因为坚信圣经生命是由神创造的并且“各从其类”因而拒不接受这个“科学事实”。结果 ...


结果就有了巴斯德和现代微生物学现代免疫学。
 
#601笼统讲了过渡性化石的缺失问题,下面细化讲化石记录缺乏构成系统发生学树的特征:Lack of Identifiable Phylogeny in the Fossil Record

“From 1860 onward the more distant fossil record became a big issue, and over the next two decades discoveries were made that at first seemed to give support to the theory particularly the claimed discovery of a well-ordered sequence of fossil horse‘ dating back about 45 million years. Successes like this continue to be emphasized both to students and the public, but usually without the greater failures being mentioned. Horses according to the theory should be connected to other orders of mammals, which common mammalian stock should be connected to reptiles, and so on backward through the record. Horses should thus be connected to monkeys and apes, to whales and dolphins, rabbits, bears. …But such connections have not been found. Each mammalian order can be traced backward for about 60 million years and then, with only one exception the orders vanish without connections to anything at all. The exception is an order of small insect-eating mammal that has been traced backward more than 65 million years…” (Hoyle, Fred,a lifelong atheist, anti-theist and Darwinist, Mathematics of Evolution, [1987], 1999, p.107.)

Hoyle在达尔文主义者里面是另一个另类,支持生命源自外太空,是那句著名的“一场龙卷风横扫过一个垃圾堆,可以形成一架波音747飞机”的原作者,引用Wiki的一些话:

“Hoyle promoted the hypothesis that the first life on Earth began in space, spreading through the universe via panspermia, and that evolution on earth is influenced by a steady influx of viruses arriving via comets”

“Hoyle calculated that the chance of obtaining the required set of enzymes for even the simplest living cell without panspermia was one in 10的4万次方. Since the number of atoms in the known universe is infinitesimally tiny by comparison (10的80次方), he argued that Earth as life's place of origin could be ruled out. ...

Hoyle, a lifelong atheist, anti-theist and Darwinist said that this apparent suggestion of a guiding hand left him "greatly shaken." Those who advocate the intelligent design (ID) belief sometimes cite Hoyle's work in this area to support the claim that the universe was fine tuned in order to allow intelligent life to be possible. Alfred Russel of the Uncommon Descent community has even gone so far as labeling Hoyle "an atheist for ID".
Hoyle compared the random emergence of even the simplest cell without panspermia to the likelihood that "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein." Hoyle also compared the chance of obtaining even a single functioning protein by chance combination of amino acids to a solar system full of blind men solving Rubik's Cubes simultaneously. Misunderstandings of Hoyle's statements and this line of reasoning appear frequently in support of intelligent design. Mainstream evolutionarybiology rejects Hoyle's interpretation of statistics, and supporters of modern evolutionary theory who oppose panspermia, refer to this as "Hoyle's fallacy". Apart from claiming a role for panspermia in natural selection, Hoyle accepted the rest of the standard account of evolution
 
继续:Lack of Identifiable Phylogeny in the Fossil Record

“Fossil discoveries can muddle over attempts to construct simple evolutionary trees–fossils from key periods are often not intermediates, but rather hode podges of defining features of many different groups… Generally, it seems that major groups are not assembled in a simple linear or progressive manner–new features are often “cut and pasted” on different groups at different times.” (Shubin, Neil, paleontologist, evolutionary biologist, “Evolutionary Cut and Paste,” Nature, vol. 349, 1998, p. 39.)

“The fossil record of evolutionary change within single evolutionary lineages is very poor. If evolution is true, species originate through changes of ancestral species: one might expect to be able to see this in the fossil record. In fact it can rarely be seen. In 1859 Darwin could not cite a single example.” (Ridley, Mark, The Problems of Evolution, 1985, p. 11.)

“Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn’t changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin’s time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information…” (Raup, David M.,著名古生物学家, “Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology,” Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin, vol. 50, 1979, p. 25.)

The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nods of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils. Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory on a denial of this literal record.” (Gould, Stephen J. The Panda’s Thumb, 1980, p. 181.)

“The main problem with such phyletic gradualism is that the fossil record provides so little evidence for it. Very rarely can we trace the gradual transformation of one entire species into another through a finely graded sequence of intermediary forms.” (Gould, S.J. Luria, S.E. & Singer, S., A View of Life, 1981, p. 641.)

The Eldredge-Gould concept of punctuated equilibria has gained wide acceptance among paleontologists. it attempts to account for the following paradox: Within continuously sampled lineages, one rarely finds the gradual morphological trends predicted by Darwinian evolution; rather, change occurs with the sudden appearance of new, well-differentiated species. Eldredge and Gould equate such appearances with speciation, although the details of these events are not preserved. …The punctuated equilibrium model has been widely accepted, not because it has a compelling theoretical basis but because it appears to resolve a dilemma. Apart from the obvious sampling problems inherent to the observations that stimulated the model, and apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa), the model is more ad hoc explanation than theory, and it rests on shaky ground.” (Ricklefs, Robert E., “Paleontologists Confronting Macroevolution,” Science, vol. 199, 1978, p.59.)

“One of the most pervasive myths in all of paleontology…is the myth that the evolutionary histories of living beings are essentially a matter of discovery. Uncertainties in our interpretations of the fossil record are ascribed to the incompleteness of that record. Find enough fossils, it is believed, and the course of evolution will somehow be revealed. But if this were really so, one could confidently expect that as more hominid fossils were found the story of human evolution would become clearer. Whereas if anything, the opposite has occurred.” (Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p. 127.)

“One thing which has struck me very forcibly through they years is that most of the classic evolutionary lineages of my student days, such as Ostrea-Gryphaea and Zaphrentis delanouei, have long since lost their scientific respectability, and in spite of the plethora of palaeontological information we now have available, there seems to be very little to put in their place. In twenty years’ work on the Mesozoic Brachiopoda, I have found plenty of relationships, but few if any evolving lineages.” (Ager, D., The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record, 1981, p. 20.)

“The proper metaphor of a bush also helps us to understand why the search for a ‘missing link’ between advanced ape and incipient human – that musty but persistent hope of chimera of popular writing – is so meaningless. A continuous chain may lack a crucial connection, but a branching bush bears no single link at a crucial threshold between no and yes. …No branch point can have special status as the missing link – and all represent lateral relationships of diversification, not vertical sequences of transformation. (Gould, Stephen J., “Empire of the Apes,” Natural History, 1987, p. 20.)

“No matter how high we tune the power of our microscope, we cannot escape an evolutionary topology of branching and bushiness. …The metaphor of the bush (and the falsity of the ladder) permeates evolution at all genealogical scales, from the history of a species to the unfolding of life’s entire tree. Bushiness is a pattern of self-similarity that emerges whenever we magnify successively smaller segments of life’s tree. …life’s tree is a fractal, and tiny parts, when magnified, look much like the whole.” (Gould, Stephen J., “Bushes All the Way Down,” Natural History, 1987, p. 19.)

Phylogeny…is ‘in the vast majority of cases…unknown and possibly unknowable’ (Sneath and Sokal 1973, p. 53.) On the latter point, I have come to the same conclusion.” (Patterson, Colin, “Morphological Characters and Homology,” 1982, p. 61.)

Undeniably, the fossil record has provided disappointingly few gradual series. The origins of many groups are still not documented at all.” (Futuyma, D., is the author of the widely used textbook Evolutionary Biology Science on Trial: The Case for Evolution, 1983, p. 190-191.)

“Most groups of organisms are best visualized as highly complex phylogenetic bushes … In large parts of the natural system it is impossible to demonstrate that one particular taxonomic sequence is superior to other alternatives.” (Mayr, E. 进化论大佬之一 The Growth of Biological Thought: Diversity, Evolution and Inheritance, 1982, p. 242.)

“Indeed, it is the chief frustration of the fossil record that we do not have empirical evidence for sustained trends in the evolution of most complex morphological adaptations.” (Gould, Stephen J. and Eldredge, Niles, “Species Selection: Its Range and Power,” 1988, p. 19.)
“Species that were once thought to have turned into others have been found to overlap in time with these alleged descendants. In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another.” (Stanley, S.M., The New Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes, and the Origin of Species, 1981, p. 95.)

“A persistent problem in evolutionary biology has been the absence of intermediate forms in the fossil record. Long term gradual transformations of single lineages are rare and generally involve simple size increase or trivial phenotypic effects. Typically, the record consists of successive ancestor-descendant lineages, morphologically invariant through time and unconnected by intermediates.” (Williamson, P.G., “Palaeontological Documentation of Speciation in Cenozoic Molluscs from Turkana Basin,” Nature 293, 1982, p. 440.)

At the higher level of evolutionary transition between basic morphological designs, gradualism has always been in trouble, though it remains the “official” position of most Western evolutionists. Smooth intermediates between Baupläne are almost impossible to construct, even in thought experiments; there is certainly no evidence for them in the fossil record (curious mosaics like Archaeopteryx do not count).” (Gould, S.J. and Eldredge, N., “Punctuated Equilibria: the Tempo and Mode of Evolution Reconsidered.” Paleobiology 3, 1977, p. 147.)

The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition.” (Stanley, Steven M., Macroevolution: Pattern and Process, 1979 p. 39.)
 
[FONT=宋体]谢谢。首先有个建议,既然对你来说,宗教仅仅是指基督教,那么在仅仅指基督教的情况下最好就直接用基督教一词,而不要用宗教一词,否则很容易引起误解。[/FONT]

同意. 对俺来说宗教当然不仅仅是基督教,但是佛教在CFC太敏感,其他宗教了解甚少,不想妄加评论。以后俺将宗教(指一神教)和基督教分开吧

[FONT=宋体]世上有无数宗教派别,其本质其实跟科学类似,都是一个世界观,错也好,对也好,粗陋也好,高深也好,都反映了一种对客观世界的认识。。。所有宗教对客观世界的认识,单神论也好,多神论也好,像佛教那样的无神论也好,同样是通过观察猜想得到的[/FONT]

俺认为你这句话的潜台词是,这个世界上没有“神”存在,宗教都是人臆想出来的。否则,宗教就不是粗陋和高深的概念也远不仅仅是对客观世界的认识。-- 俺当然不是要你假设神存在,而是质疑你当谈到“认为神存在的宗教”时的立场

[FONT=宋体]不清楚你为什么会提到“无神论不应该成为科学的前提”,我好像还没有看到哪个人积极提倡过这种说法。科学的起点与宗教的起点一样,都是眼前的客观世界,前者试图通过观察、猜想、验证等手段来不断加深拓宽对客观世界的理解,试图解释客观世界为何是这个样子,所以科学的特征是动态的知识累积,就像雪球越滚越大,大家都在努力朝前推动,希望滚出一个更大更圆的雪球,甚至不惜抛弃旧的雪球重新开始滚过;相比之下,后者特征可以说是静止的,所有宗教对客观世界的认识,单神论也好,多神论也好,像佛教那样的无神论也好,同样是通过观察猜想得到的,但一个雪球成型之后马上就被信徒当作世上唯一货真价实或者最大或者最圆或者最完美的雪球放进了冰箱保存起来,不容置疑,希望一代一代传下去。这才是宗教和科学的本质差别?[/FONT]

俺同意你对科学的表述,除了下面的补充。对宗教的意见如上,关于如何识别真假宗教是另一个话题了。基督教包括圣经确实是自顶向下的,是静态的。但是人对圣经的理解是动态的。个人认为科学可以用来检验圣经(不是检验基督徒理解下的圣经),尽管难度很大

还是将讨论拉回到进化论中。俺的意思是,科学的出发点是科学的哲学,通过科学的手段去探索生命的起源,物种的起源。如果科学还没有进步到能够完全认清这些问题,就诚实地说不知道;科学研究生命/物种起源的起点不能是假设神不存在,否则进化论就是唯一可能的解释。那么,进化论研究就不是“试图通过观察、猜想、验证等手段来不断加深拓宽对客观世界的理解”,也不是“就像雪球越滚越大”,因为已经预设了同源进化必然存在。窃以为这不符合科学精神。这也是俺在此楼质疑的基本点

[FONT=宋体]我也不清楚你下面这句话的意思:“[/FONT][FONT=宋体]基督教当然可以接受,也欢迎科学的检验,唯一的困难在于,当拿人的逻辑来检验宗教时,如何不受现世价值观的干扰[/FONT][FONT=宋体]” 。人的逻辑?难道你知道这个世上还有其他非人的逻辑?超人的逻辑?任何宗教,任何概念,任何认识,都是“人的逻辑”的产物。脱离了人,脱离了人的逻辑,哪来宗教,哪来“圣经”?[/FONT]

你这段逻辑就是带着人的偏见或者说带着没有完全证实的知识(神是不存在的)的“人”的逻辑,所以你说基督教是“人的逻辑”的产物;Gould谈为什么进化论必然存在的三大原因之一:这个生物世界非常不完美,所以不存在一位万能的神创造的,这就是带着人的价值观--万能的神当然有能力创造完美的生物世界;祂的创造物也必然会是完美的;当然完美的定义也是从人出发的完美

你关于进化论讨论的思路,我觉得有些打“稻草人”之嫌。与世上绝大多数现象类似,比如生物呈现多样化、宗教呈现多样化等,关于进化论的立场同样是多样化,基本上从完全支持到绝对反对之间的所有“灰色地带”都有人在发表看法。也许有许多科学家真的认为进化论是毋庸置疑的真理,但也一定有许多科学家仍然把它视为科学假设

如果你说的进化论指的是同源进化,那这就是俺质疑的出发点!有些科学家认为它是荒谬的,有些仅仅将它视为科学假设--这两种还不少,但是作为一个整体的科学界却将“同源进化”认定是“不可置疑”的真理,貌似此楼前面的CFCer也是这样

我在前面提到过,进化论只是整个有限宇宙演化的局部细节,你如果不知道整个宇宙的演化过程,没有看清楚全貌,也就很难断定这个局部细节究竟是胳膊肘还是屁股沟。你引用的所有人士,诺奖得主也好,一流科学家也好,没有一个人知道整个有限宇宙演化的全貌,所以他们的声音哪怕全部加起来恐怕还是不够“份量”。在这些人的言论中,我察觉到的不是什么宗教问题,而是各人各自怀有的世界观宇宙观,但没有一个是完整正确的。

然也,尽然进化论仅是一个局部,那么我们该怎样才能看清楚全貌?前面解释过了,俺没有假设这些引用的观点是正确的,更加没有假设这些局部观点背后代表的完整理论是正确的。俺引用的目的仅仅在展示科学界的分歧

[FONT=宋体]“人的理性是有限的”?人没有能力思考关于“神的生命”的问题?只要是“人的逻辑”的产物,人的理性当然有能力思考,不必担心什么限度、自己画地为牢。不用预设神肯定不存在,恰恰相反,就让我们预设你说的神肯定存在好了,如果一个神不够,我们甚至可以预设两个神,三个神,一万个神,一亿个神,请便,但那又怎样,这个神或者这些神也不过是一团能量罢了,跟阿猫阿狗、跟一堆牛粪没有任何本质区别,都是能量存在的一部分,都是能量存在的形式之一。所谓神创,不过是能量转换而已;所谓神的生命,也不过是能量守恒而已。或者你说的神是个无能的家伙?[/FONT]

你这段话中所描述的神和宗教的前提仍然是:神是不存在的,所以神是人的逻辑的产物;如果神是存在的,神当然不是人的逻辑的产物,人既然是神创造的,人怎么有能力思考人没有任何知识的另外一个世界?
 
续#622对进化过渡化石的分析:Abrupt Appearance in the Fossil Record

Major transitions in biological evolution show the same pattern of sudden emergence of diverse forms at a new level of complexity. The relationships between major groups within an emergent new class of biological entities are hard to decipher and do not seem to fit the tree pattern that, following Darwin’s original proposal, remains the dominant description of biological evolution.” (Koonin, Eugene, a recognised expert in the field of evolutionaryand computational biology, “The Biological Big Bang model for the major transitions in evolution,” Biology Direct, 2007, 2:21.)

“No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never to happen. Assiduous collecting up cliff faces yields zigzags, minor oscillations, and the very occasional slight accumulation of changeover millions of years, at a rate too slow to really account for all the prodigious change that has occurred in evolutionary history. When we do see the introduction of evolutionary novelty, it usually shows up with a bang, and often with no firm evidence that the organisms did not evolve elsewhere! Evolution cannot forever be going on someplace else. Yet that’s how the fossil record has struck many a forlorn paleontologist looking to learn something about evolution.” (Eldredge, Niles, Reinventing Darwin: The Great Evolutionary Debate, 1996, p.95.)

“At the core of punctuated equilibria lies an empirical observation: once evolved, species tend to remain remarkably stable, recognizable entities for millions of years. The observation is by no means new, nearly every paleontologist who reviewed Darwin’s Origin of Species pointed to his evasion of this salient feature of the fossil record. But stasis was conveniently dropped as a feature of life’s history to he reckoned with in evolutionary biology.” (Eldredge, Niles, Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria, 1985, p.188.)

“It is, indeed, a very curious state of affairs, I think, that paleontologists have been insisting that their record is consistent with slow, steady, gradual evolution where I think that privately, they’ve known for over a hundred years that such is not the case. …It’s the only reason why they can correlate rocks with their fossils, for instance. …They’ve ignored the question completely.” (Eldredge, Niles, “Did Darwin Get It Wrong?” Nova (November 1, 1981), 22 p. 6.)

“The record certainly did not reveal gradual transformations of structure in the course of time. On the contrary, it showed that species generally remained constant throughout their history and were replaced quite suddenly by significantly different forms. New types or classes seemed to appear fully formed, with no sign of an evolutionary trend by which they could have emerged from an earlier type.” (Bowler,  a vocal critic of creationismEvolution: The History of an Idea, 1984, p. 187.)

“Paleontologists have paid an enormous price for Darwin’s argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life’s history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study. …The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1. Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is usually limited and directionless. 2. Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and ‘fully formed.’” (Gould, Stephen J. The Panda’s Thumb, 1980, p. 181-182.)

Paleontologists are traditionally famous (or infamous) for reconstructing whole animals from the debris of death. Mostly they cheat. …If any event in life’s history resembles man’s creation myths, it is this sudden diversification of marine life when multicellular organisms took over as the dominant actors in ecology and evolution. Baffling (and embarrassing) to Darwin, this event still dazzles us and stands as a major biological revolution on a par with the invention of self-replication and the origin of the eukaryotic cell. The animal phyla emerged out of the Precambrian mists with most of the attributes of their modern descendants.” (Bengtson, Stefan, “The Solution to a Jigsaw Puzzle,” Nature, vol. 345 (June 28, 1990), pp. 765-766.)

“Beginning at the base of the Cambrian period and extending for about 10 million years, all the major groups of skeletonized invertebrates made their first appearance in the most spectacular rise in diversity ever recorded on our planet.” (Salvador E. Luria, Stephen Jay Gould, Sam Singer, A View of Life, 1981, p.649.)

“And it has been the paleontologist my own breed who have been most responsible for letting ideas dominate reality: …. We paleontologist have said that the history of life supports that interpretation [gradual adaptive change], all the while knowing that it does not.” (Niles Eldredge, Columbia Univ., American Museum Of Natural History, Time Frames, 1986, p.144.)

Paleontologists had long been aware of a seeming contradiction between Darwin’s postulate of gradualism…and the actual findings of paleontology. Following phyletic lines through time seemed to reveal only minimal gradual changes but no clear evidence for any change of a species into a different genus or for the gradual origin of an evolutionary novelty. Anything truly novel always seemed to appear quite abruptly in the fossil record.” (Mayr, E. One Long Argument: Charles Darwin and the Genesis of Modern Evolutionary Thought, 1991, p. 138.)

“In spite of these examples, it remains true, as every paleontologist knows, that most new species, genera, and families, and that nearly all new categories above the level of families, appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences.” (Simpson, George Gaylord, The Major Features of Evolution, 1953, p. 360.)

“Stepping way back and looking at too broad a scale, one might discern some sort of progress in life’s history. …But the pattern dissolves upon close inspection. Most structural complexity entered in a grand burst at the Cambrian explosion, and the history of Phanerozoic life since then has largely been a tale of endless variation upon a set Bauplane. We may discern a few ‘vectors’ of directional change – thickening and ornamentation of shells…–but these are scarcely the stuff of progress in its usual sense. … I believe our inability to find any clear vector of fitfully accumulating progress…represents our greatest dilemma for a study of pattern in life’s history.” (Gould, Stephen J., “The Paradox of the First Tier: an Agenda for Paleobiology,” Paleobiology, 1985, p. 3.)

Enthusiastic paleontologists in several countries have claimed pieces of this missing record, but the claims have all been disputed and in any case do not provide real connections. That brings me to the second most surprising feature of the fossil record…the abruptness of some of the major changes in the history of life.” (Ager, D., The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record, 1981, p. 20.)

“The fossil record had caused Darwin more grief than joy. Nothing distressed him more than the Cambrian explosion, the coincident appearance of almost all complex organic designs…” (Gould, Stephen J., The Panda’s Thumb, 1980, p. 238-239.)

“Most families, orders, classes, and phyla appear rather suddenly in the fossil record, often without anatomically intermediate forms smoothly interlinking evolutionarily derived descendant taxa with their presumed ancestors.” (Eldredge, Niles, Macro-Evolutionary Dynamics: Species, Niches, and Adaptive Peaks, 1989, p. 22.)

“If evolution could produce ten new Cambrian phyla and then wipe them out just as quickly, then what about the surviving Cambrian groups? Why should they have had a long and honorable Pre-cambrian pedigree? Why should they not have originated just before the Cambrian, as the fossil record, read literally, seems to indicate, and as the fast-transition theory proposes? This argument, of course, is a death knell for the artifact theory.” (Gould, Stephen J., Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History, 1989, p. 273.)

“…one of the most striking and potentially embarrassing features of the fossil record. The majority of major groups appear suddenly in the rocks, with virtually no evidence of transition from their ancestors.” (Futuyma, D., Science on Trial: The Case for Evolution, 1983, p. 82.)
“Modern multicellular animals make their first uncontested appearance in the fossil record some 570 million years ago – and with a bang, not a protracted crescendo. This ‘Cambrian explosion’ marks the advent (at least into direct evidence) of virtually all major groups of modern animals – and all within the minuscule span, geologically speaking, of a few million years.” (Gould, Stephen J.,Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History, 1989, p. 23-24.)

“All through the fossil record, groups – both large and small – abruptly appear and disappear. …The earliest phase of rapid change usually is undiscovered, and must be inferred by comparison with its probable relatives.” (Newell, N. D., Creation and Evolution: Myth or Reality, 1984, p. 10.)

“Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists of Darwin’s time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. And it is not always clear, in fact it’s rarely clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find.” (Raup, David M., “Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology,” Bulletin, Field Museum of Natural History, vol. 50, 1979, p. 23.)

“Unfortunately, the origins of most higher categories are shrouded in mystery; commonly new higher categories appear abruptly in the fossil record without evidence of transitional ancestral forms.” (Raup, D. M. and Stanley, S. M., Principles of Paleontology, 1971, p. 306.)
 
同意. 对俺来说宗教当然不仅仅是基督教,但是佛教在CFC太敏感,其他宗教了解甚少,不想妄加评论。以后俺将宗教(指一神教)和基督教分开吧



俺认为你这句话的潜台词是,这个世界上没有“神”存在,宗教都是人臆想出来的。否则,宗教就不是粗陋和高深的概念也远不仅仅是对客观世界的认识。-- 俺当然不是要你假设神存在,而是质疑你当谈到“认为神存在的宗教”时的立场



俺同意你对科学的表述,除了下面的补充。对宗教的意见如上,关于如何识别真假宗教是另一个话题了。基督教包括圣经确实是自顶向下的,是静态的。但是人对圣经的理解是动态的。个人认为科学可以用来检验圣经(不是检验基督徒理解下的圣经),尽管难度很大

还是将讨论拉回到进化论中。俺的意思是,科学的出发点是科学的哲学,通过科学的手段去探索生命的起源,物种的起源。如果科学还没有进步到能够完全认清这些问题,就诚实地说不知道;科学研究生命/物种起源的起点不能是假设神不存在,否则进化论就是唯一可能的解释。那么,进化论研究就不是“试图通过观察、猜想、验证等手段来不断加深拓宽对客观世界的理解”,也不是“就像雪球越滚越大”,因为已经预设了同源进化必然存在。窃以为这不符合科学精神。这也是俺在此楼质疑的基本点



你这段逻辑就是带着人的偏见或者说带着没有完全证实的知识(神是不存在的)的“人”的逻辑,所以你说基督教是“人的逻辑”的产物;Gould谈为什么进化论必然存在的三大原因之一:这个生物世界非常不完美,所以不存在一位万能的神创造的,这就是带着人的价值观--万能的神当然有能力创造完美的生物世界;祂的创造物也必然会是完美的;当然完美的定义也是从人出发的完美



如果你说的进化论指的是同源进化,那这就是俺质疑的出发点!有些科学家认为它是荒谬的,有些仅仅将它视为科学假设--这两种还不少,但是作为一个整体的科学界却将“同源进化”认定是“不可置疑”的真理,貌似此楼前面的CFCer也是这样



然也,尽然进化论仅是一个局部,那么我们该怎样才能看清楚全貌?前面解释过了,俺没有假设这些引用的观点是正确的,更加没有假设这些局部观点背后代表的完整理论是正确的。俺引用的目的仅仅在展示科学界的分歧



你这段话中所描述的神和宗教的前提仍然是:神是不存在的,所以神是人的逻辑的产物;如果神是存在的,神当然不是人的逻辑的产物,人既然是神创造的,人怎么有能力思考人没有任何知识的另外一个世界?


Soaring兄,换一个简单的不容易误解的说法,我在跟你谈圣经中描述的神,但是你跟我谈的确是你自己想象的神--我不是要你承认神存在或者承认神是万能
 
继续对进化过渡化石的分析: Stasis After Appearance in the Fossil Record

解释:stasis:见Niles Eldredge 和 Stephen Jay Gould 提出的Punctuated equilibrium宏进化理论的解释:most species will exhibit little net evolutionary change for most of their geological history, remaining in an extended state called stasis. Punctuated equilibrium

“A localized population…suddenly appear(s) on the scene and then continue(s) essentially unchanged until [they] become(s) extinct.” (Mayr, Ernst, What Evolution Is, Basic Books, 2001 p. 63.)

“The complete standstill or stasis of an evolutionary lineage for scores, if not hundreds, of millions of years is very puzzling.” (Mayr, Ernst, What Evolution Is, Basic Books, 2001 p. 195.)

“Stasis has become interesting as a central prediction of our theory.” (Gould, Stephen J., “Opus 200,” Natural History, 1991, p. 16.)

From (Gould, Stephen Jay, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, 2002.):

“…the tale itself illustrates the central fact of the fossil record so well [the] geologically abrupt origin and subsequent extended stasis of most species…Anatomy may fluctuate through time, but the last remnants of a species look pretty much like the first representatives.” (p. 749.)

…the greatest and most biologically astute paleontologist of the 20th century…acknowledged the literal appearance of stasis and geologically abrupt origin as the outstanding general fact of the fossil record and as a pattern which would ‘pose one of the most important theoretical problems in the whole history of life.’” (p. 755 quoting George Gaylord Simpson.)

“…the long term stasis following geologically abrupt origin of most fossil morphospecies, has always been recognized by professional paleontologists.” (p. 752.)

The great majority of species do not show any appreciable evolutionary change at all. These species appear in the section (first occurrence) without obvious ancestors in the underlying beds, are stable once established and disappear higher up without leaving any descendants.” (p. 753.)

“…but stasis is data… Say it ten times before breakfast every day for a week, and the argument will surely seep in by osmosis: ‘stasis is data; stasis is data’…” (p. 759.)

Gould debunks the: “exceedingly few cases that became textbook ‘classics’ of coiling of Gryphaea and the increasing body size of the horses etc.” (p. 760.).

“Indeed proclamations for the supposed ‘truth’ of gradualism – asserted against every working paleontologist’s knowledge of its rarity – emerged largely from such a restriction of attention to exceedingly rare cases under the false belief that they alone provided a record of evolution at all! The falsification of most ‘textbook classics’ upon restudy only accentuates the fallacy of the ‘case study’ method and its root in prior expectation rather than objective reading of the fossil record.” (p. 773.)

“The principal problem is morphological stasis. A theory is only as good as its predictions, and conventional neo-Darwinism, which claims to be a comprehensive explanation of evolutionary process, has failed to predict the widespread long-term morphological stasis now recognized as one of the most striking aspects of the fossil record.” (Williamson, Peter G., “Morphological Stasis and Developmental Constraint: Real Problems for Neo-Darwinism,” Nature, Vol. 294, 19 November 1981, p.214.)

It is a simple ineluctable truth that virtually all members of a biota remain basically stable, with minor fluctuations, throughout their duration…” (Eldredge, Niles, The Pattern of Evolution, 1998, p. 157.)

“But fossil species remain unchanged throughout most of their history and the record fails to contain a single example of a significant transition.” (Woodroff, D.S., Science, vol. 208, 1980, p.716.)

“The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly…a punctuational model of evolution…operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them – in small, localized, transitory populations…The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found.” (Stanley, S.M., New Evolutionary Timetable, 1981, pp.77, 110.)

“…why after such rapid diversification did these microorganisms remain essentially unchanged for the next 3.465 billion years? Such stasis, common in biology, is puzzling…” (Corliss, William R., “Early Life Surprisingly Diverse,” Science Frontiers, 88:2, 1993, p.2.)

“Just as we have long known about stasis and abrupt appearance, but have chose to fob it off upon an imperfect fossil record, so too have we long recognized the rapid, if not sudden, turnover of faunas in episodes of mass extinction. We have based our geological alphabet, the time scale, upon these faunal replacements. Yet we have chosen to blunt or mitigate the rapidity and extent of extinctions with two habits of argument rooted in uniformitarian commitments.” (Gould, Stephen J., “The Paradox of the First Tier: An Agenda for Paleobiology,” Paleobiology, 1985, p. 7.)

“Paleontologists ever since Darwin have been searching (largely in vain) for the sequences of insensibly graded series of fossils that would stand as examples of the sort of wholesale transformation of species that Darwin envisioned as the natural product of the evolutionary process. Few saw any reason to demur – though it is a startling fact that …most species remain recognizably themselves, virtually unchanged throughout their occurrence in geological sediments of various ages.” (Eldredge, Niles, “Progress in Evolution?” New Scientist, vol. 110, 1986, p. 55.)

“We expect life’s bushes…to tell some story of direction change. If they do not, we do not feature them in our studies – if we even manage to see them at all. …Paleontologists are now beginning to study this higher order stasis, or nondirectional history of entire bushes.” (Gould, Stephen J., “Cordelia’s Dilemma,” Natural History, 1993, p. 15.)

“In other words, when the assumed evolutionary processes did not match the pattern of fossils that they were supposed to have generated, the pattern was judged to be ‘wrong.’ A circular argument arises: interpret the fossil record in terms of a particular theory of evolution, inspect the interpretation, and note that it confirms the theory. Well, it would, wouldn’t it? …As is now well known, most fossil species appear instantaneously in the record, persist for some millions of years virtually unchanged, only to disappear abruptly – the ‘punctuated equilibrium’ pattern of Eldredge and Gould.” (Kemp, Tom S., “A Fresh Look at the Fossil Record,” New Scientist, vol. 108, 1985, pp. 66-67.)

“When fossils are most common, evolution is most rarely observed. …Again, we note the paradox: nothing much happens for most of the time when evidence abounds; everything happens in largely unrecorded geological moments. We could attribute this pattern to either a devious or humorous God, out to confuse us or merely to chuckle at our frustration. But I choose to look upon this phenomenon in a positive light, for it is trying to tell us something important. There is a lesson, not merely frustration, in the message that change is concentrated in infrequent bursts and that stability is the usual nature of species and systems at any moment.” (Gould, Stephen J., “Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness,” Natural History, 1988, p. 14.)

The old Darwinian view of evolution as a ladder of more and more efficient forms leading up to the present is not borne out by the evidence. Most changes are random rather than systematic modifications, until species drop out. There is no sign of directed order here. Trends do occur in many lines, but they are not the rule.” (Newell, N. D.,反创造论者, “Systematics and Evolution,” 1984, p. 10.)

“For more than a century biologists have portrayed the evolution of life as a gradual unfolding…Today the fossil record…is forcing us to revise this conventional view.” (Stanley, S. M., The New Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes, and the Origin of Species, 1981, p.3.)

“Well-represented species are usually stable throughout their temporal range, or alter so little and in such superficial ways (usually in size alone), that an extrapolation of observed change into longer periods of geological time could not possibly yield the extensive modifications that mark general pathways of evolution in larger groups. Most of the time, when the evidence is best, nothing much happens to most species.” (Gould Stephen J., “Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness,” Natural History, 1988, p. 14.)

“And so it goes for most groups in most long segments of geological time – lots of evolutionary change, but no story of clear and persistent direction. (Gould, Stephen J., “Cordelia’s Dilemma,”Natural History, 1993, p. 18.)

“Darwin’s prediction of rampant, albeit gradual, change affecting all lineages through time is refuted. The record is there, and the record speaks for tremendous anatomical conservation.. Change in the manner Darwin expected is just not found in the fossil record.” (Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p. 48.)

“Paleontologists just were not seeing the expected changes in their fossils as they pursued them up through the rock record. …That individual kinds of fossils remain recognizably the same throughout the length of their occurrence in the fossil record had been known to paleontologists long before Darwin published his Origin. Darwin himself, …prophesied that future generations of paleontologists would fill in these gaps by diligent search …One hundred and twenty years of paleontological research later, it has become abundantly clear that the fossil record will not confirm this part of Darwin’s predictions. Nor is the problem a miserably poor record. The fossil record simply shows that this prediction is wrong. …The observation that species are amazingly conservative and static entities throughout long periods of time has all the qualities of the emperor’s new clothes: everyone knew it but preferred to ignore it. Paleontologists, faced with a recalcitrant record obstinately refusing to yield Darwin’s predicted pattern, simply looked the other way.” (Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p. 45-46.)

“There is no recognizable trend toward increased complexity that is clear enough to use for dating purposes. …Increasing complexity through time is elusive at best. (This is one of the interesting aspects of evolution: the process is not clearly directional.)” (Raup, D.M., “Testing the Fossil Record for Evolutionary Progress,” 1983, p. 154.)

“Stasis, or nonchange, of most fossil species during their lengthy geological lifespans was tacitly acknowledged by all paleontologists, but almost never studied explicitly because prevailing theory treated stasis as uninteresting nonevidence for nonevolution. …The overwhelming prevalence of stasis became an embarrassing feature of the fossil record, best left ignored as a manifestation of nothing (that is, nonevolution). (Gould, Stephen J., “Cordelia’s Dilemma,” Natural History, 1993, p. 15.)

“It is counterintuitive but revealing that the morphological motifs animals began with were carried over to the present, with few additions.” (Newman, Stuart A., “Physico-Genetic Determinants in the Evolution of Development,” Science, Oct. 2012, Vol. 338 no. 6104 pp. 217-219.)
 
看完了不同进化论科学家对过渡型化石的不同传统的观点后,再回过头看看美国科学院的政治性材料中体现出来的传统观点:http://www.xys.org/xys/ebooks/others/science/misc/evolutionall.txt, 仅摘录与化石纪录相关的、前面引用涉及到的部分内容如下:

美国科学院、美国医学科学院 著
  晓实 译

  (美国科学院出版社2008年1月出版)

化石记录详细记载了进化过程

  达尔文于1859年发表《物种起源》时,古生物学还是一门新兴的科学领域。地质史上许多年代的沉积岩要么是鲜为人知,要么是还没有充分研究。达尔文公开自己的理论以前,花了近20年的时间搜集支持论点的证据,他也仔细考虑了支持论点的证据不充分的问题,比如说那个时代的化石记录不完全,缺少有些主要生物群体之间的过渡化石等

  从那时起的一个半世纪以来,古生物学家发现了很多达尔文时代所未知的过渡型生物。[/b

 始祖鸟是长期以来众所周知的过渡类型 ......更为晚些的化石记录揭示了很多现代生物的进化轨迹,例如鲸、象、犰狳、马、和人类等。

神创论者有时指责化石记录不完整,宣称这就是表明生命自产生起就具有现代形态的证据。但这种论调完全无视于过去两个世纪以来,古生物学家和其他生物学家积累了丰富而且极为详细的进化史记录而且,这些记录还在与日俱增。古生物学家的研究已经填补了查尔斯?达尔文时代缺失的许多化石记录。所谓化石记录“百孔千疮”,进化论无所依赖的断言只不过是一派胡言。实际上,今天的古生物学家关于沉积物年龄的知识已经足以使他们预测,在什么地方能够找到特异的重要过渡型化石,就像“大淡水鱼”和现代人类祖先的发现一样。研究人员还利用新的技术,例如X射线断层成像(CT)技术,探索精细骨骼化石的内部结构和构成。无论是科学文献还是通俗媒体,常常都有令人激动的发现新化石的报道。

  化石记录另一个令人信服的特点就是它的连贯一致性。我们知道,恐龙是6千5百万年前灭绝的,人类的出现只是过去几百万年之间的事情,而地球上从来没有发现过一例恐龙与人类在一起的化石。在2亿2千多万年的沉积物中,也从来没有发现过哺乳类的化石。所有神创论者指出的这种关系似乎紊乱甚或颠倒的沉积物中,科学家都已经清楚地证明,这种颠倒是由于地质岩层的折叠使得有些地层折到上面或下面所致。在化石记录中,只含有单细胞生物化石的沉积物,比既含有单细胞,又含有多细胞生物遗迹的沉积物出现得要早。地球沉积物中化石出现的顺序确定无疑地表明进化的发生。

仅重复上面几个有代表性的引文如下:节省篇幅,断章取义一下--

“Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn’t changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin’s time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information…” (Raup, David M. Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin, vol. 50, 1979, p. 25.)

The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nods of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils. Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory on a denial of this literal record.” (Gould, Stephen J. The Panda’s Thumb, 1980, p. 181.)

“Undeniably, the fossil record has provided disappointingly few gradual series. The origins of many groups are still not documented at all.” (Futuyma, D., Science on Trial: The Case for Evolution, 1983, p. 190-191.)

“In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another.” (Stanley, S.M., The New Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes, and the Origin of Species, 1981, p. 95.)

“It is, indeed, a very curious state of affairs, I think, that paleontologists have been insisting that their record is consistent with slow, steady, gradual evolution where I think that privately, they’ve known for over a hundred years that such is not the case. …It’s the only reason why they can correlate rocks with their fossils, for instance. …They’ve ignored the question completely.” (Eldredge, Niles, “Did Darwin Get It Wrong?” Nova (November 1, 1981), 22 p. 6.)

“Paleontologists are traditionally famous (or infamous) for reconstructing whole animals from the debris of death. Mostly they cheat. … The animal phyla emerged out of the Precambrian mists with most of the attributes of their modern descendants.” (Bengtson, Stefan, “The Solution to a Jigsaw Puzzle,” Nature, vol. 345 (June 28, 1990), pp. 765-766.)

“And it has been the paleontologist my own breed who have been most responsible for letting ideas dominate reality: …. We paleontologist have said that the history of life supports that interpretation [gradual adaptive change], all the while knowing that it does not.” (Niles Eldredge, Columbia Univ., American Museum Of Natural History, Time Frames, 1986, p.144.)

Paleontologists had long been aware of a seeming contradiction between Darwin’s postulate of gradualism…and the actual findings of paleontology. Following phyletic lines through time seemed to reveal only minimal gradual changes but no clear evidence for any change of a species into a different genus or for the gradual origin of an evolutionary novelty. Anything truly novel always seemed to appear quite abruptly in the fossil record.” (Mayr, E. One Long Argument: Charles Darwin and the Genesis of Modern Evolutionary Thought, 1991, p. 138.)

“In spite of these examples, it remains true, as every paleontologist knows, that most new species, genera, and families, and that nearly all new categories above the level of families, appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences.” (Simpson, George Gaylord, The Major Features of Evolution, 1953, p. 360.)

“The complete standstill or stasis of an evolutionary lineage for scores, if not hundreds, of millions of years is very puzzling.” (Mayr, Ernst, What Evolution Is, Basic Books, 2001 p. 195.)

…the greatest and most biologically astute paleontologist of the 20th century…acknowledged the literal appearance of stasis and geologically abrupt origin as the outstanding general fact of the fossil record and as a pattern which would ‘pose one of the most important theoretical problems in the whole history of life.’” (Gould, Stephen J, quoting George Gaylord Simpson.)

“But fossil species remain unchanged throughout most of their history and the record fails to contain a single example of a significant transition.” (Woodroff, D.S., Science, vol. 208, 1980, p.716.)

“As is now well known, most fossil species appear instantaneously in the record, persist for some millions of years virtually unchanged, only to disappear abruptly – the ‘punctuated equilibrium’ pattern of Eldredge and Gould.” (Kemp, Tom S., “A Fresh Look at the Fossil Record,” New Scientist, vol. 108, 1985, pp. 66-67.)

“Given the fact of evolution, one would expect the fossils to document a gradual steady change from ancestral forms to the descendants. But this is not what the paleontologist finds. Instead, he or she finds gaps in just about every phyletic series.” (Ernst Mayr, Professor Emeritus, Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard University, What Evolution Is, 2001, p.14.)

What one actually found was nothing but discontinuities: All species are separated from each other by bridgeless gaps; intermediates between species are not observed . . . The problem was even more serious at the level of the higher categories.” (Mayr, E., Animal Species and Evolution, 1982, p. 524.)

“To explain discontinuities, Simpson relied, in part, upon the classical argument of an imperfect fossil record, but concluded that such an outstanding regularity could not be entirely artificial.” (Gould, Stephen J., “The Hardening of the Modern Synthesis,” 1983, p. 81.)

“Transitions between major groups of organisms . . . are difficult to establish in the fossil record.” (Stebbins, G. L., Darwin to DNA, Molecules to Humanity, 1982, p. 107.)

“Just as we have long known about stasis and abrupt appearance, but have chose to fob it off upon an imperfect fossil record, ...Yet we have chosen to blunt or mitigate the rapidity and extent of extinctions with two habits of argument rooted in uniformitarian commitments.” (Gould, Stephen J., “The Paradox of the First Tier: An Agenda for Paleobiology,” Paleobiology, 1985, p. 7.)

"Thus the main evidence for Archaeopteryx(始祖鸟) having been a terrestrial, cursorial predator is invalidated. There is nothing in the structure of the pectoral girdle of Archaeopteryx that would preclude its having been a powered flier." (Olson, Storrs L., and Alan Feduccia, "Flight Capability and the Pectoral Girdle of Archaeopteryx," Nature, vol. 278 (March 15, 1979))
 
显然方舟子也属于传统的达尔文主义者:http://xysblogs.org/fangzhouzi/archives/5688

质疑进化论的另一个常见理由,是说找不到所谓“过渡型化石”。根据进化论,现有的物种都是从过去的物种逐渐进化来的,那么在进化过程中,就会出现介于旧物种和新物种之间的过渡型物种,它们也能留下化石。而据反对进化论的人说,至今仍然没有科学家找到种与种之间,或类与类之间的过渡型化石。

这个说法是完全错误的。生物体能够形成化石是很偶然的,因此过渡型不一定能形成化石,形成了也不一定能被人们发现。因此毫不奇怪,时至今天,仍然有许多过渡型化石没能找到,而且可能永远无法找到。但是这并不等于我们没有任何过渡型化石;恰恰相反,我们已找到了许许多多过渡型化石。最著名的过渡型化石是我们在生物课本上学到过的始祖鸟化石。始祖鸟大小和乌鸦差不多,它有一些鸟类的特征,最主要的是长有羽毛。但是,它的大部分特征都是爬行类的,最明显的是长长的尾骨(达二十块)和前肢(翅膀)上有三个分开的指骨,上面长有爪子。可见,始祖鸟很明显是从爬行类到鸟类的过渡型,证明了鸟类是从爬行类进化来的。始祖鸟化石已被发现120多年了。近年来,在世界各地,特别是在中国的辽西发现了很多种与始祖鸟类似的过渡型化石,这些化石已充分证明了鸟类是从一种恐龙进化来的。

在类与类之间的过渡型化石中,除了始祖鸟,著名的还有从鱼类到两栖类的过渡型(总鳍鱼,鱼石螈,棘石螈)、两栖类到爬行类的过渡型(蜥螈)、十几种从爬行类到哺乳类的过渡型(似哺乳动物爬行类)、陆地哺乳类到原始鲸类的过渡型(巴基斯坦古鲸)。在种与种的过渡型中,最著名的有从始祖马到现代马的一系列非常完美的过渡型,和从古猿到人的过渡型。

科学家还在不断地发现新的过渡型化石。例如最近发现的比目鱼过渡型化石。长着两个眼睛的动物一般都是左右对称各一个,比目鱼的眼睛却是挤在身体一侧。如果比目鱼是从两侧对称的鱼逐渐进化来的,那么一开始时,有一侧的眼睛只是向头顶移动了一点,变得不那么对称。现存比目鱼中最接近过渡型的是大口鳒(俗称左口),它的一只眼睛接近头顶,似乎刚刚从另一侧迁移过来,但是两个眼睛也都已在同一侧,并非人们心目中的过渡型。以前因为找不到过渡型化石来证明比目鱼的进化,反对进化论的人幸灾乐祸,经常举比目鱼为例来“驳斥”进化论。但是他们笑得太早了。比目鱼过渡型化石最近被找到了,而且是两种。它们的眼睛虽然是一边一个,但是有一侧的眼睛位置偏上,靠近头顶。把这些生活在始新世(距今约4千500万年前)的比目鱼祖先化石与大口鳒和其他现存比目鱼依次放在一起,可以清楚地显示比目鱼的眼睛是如何一步步迁移的。

过渡型物种化石问题前面讲得够多了,始祖鸟前面Olson, Storrs L.明确地否认了它是传统宣称的爬行动物到鸟类的过渡--当然,俺相信也有别的化石专家支持或者反对这个观点

俺的观点当然不是说“没有任何争议”了才能下结论。俺在这里的质疑是:

1、过渡型化石存在巨大、根本性的争议--不是进化论科学家与“非科学”的创造论者的争论,而是科学界内部的争议,怎么能将过渡性化石作为同源进化“必然”存在的一个“重要”证据?

2、前面那些或者进化论大佬,或者在Nature发表的文章指责古生物学家/进化论科学家对化石记录的解释 ---- "mostly cheat", "chose to fob it off upon an imperfect fossil record", "We paleontologist have said ... all the while knowing that it does not", "they’ve known for over a hundred years that such is not the case", 不禁令人怀疑宏进化学术环境的纯洁性
 
同意. 对俺来说宗教当然不仅仅是基督教,但是佛教在CFC太敏感,其他宗教了解甚少,不想妄加评论。以后俺将宗教(指一神教)和基督教分开吧

俺认为你这句话的潜台词是,这个世界上没有“神”存在,宗教都是人臆想出来的。否则,宗教就不是粗陋和高深的概念也远不仅仅是对客观世界的认识。-- 俺当然不是要你假设神存在,而是质疑你当谈到“认为神存在的宗教”时的立场

俺同意你对科学的表述,除了下面的补充。对宗教的意见如上,关于如何识别真假宗教是另一个话题了。基督教包括圣经确实是自顶向下的,是静态的。但是人对圣经的理解是动态的。个人认为科学可以用来检验圣经(不是检验基督徒理解下的圣经),尽管难度很大

还是将讨论拉回到进化论中。俺的意思是,科学的出发点是科学的哲学,通过科学的手段去探索生命的起源,物种的起源。如果科学还没有进步到能够完全认清这些问题,就诚实地说不知道;科学研究生命/物种起源的起点不能是假设神不存在,否则进化论就是唯一可能的解释。那么,进化论研究就不是“试图通过观察、猜想、验证等手段来不断加深拓宽对客观世界的理解”,也不是“就像雪球越滚越大”,因为已经预设了同源进化必然存在。窃以为这不符合科学精神。这也是俺在此楼质疑的基本点

你这段逻辑就是带着人的偏见或者说带着没有完全证实的知识(神是不存在的)的“人”的逻辑,所以你说基督教是“人的逻辑”的产物;Gould谈为什么进化论必然存在的三大原因之一:这个生物世界非常不完美,所以不存在一位万能的神创造的,这就是带着人的价值观--万能的神当然有能力创造完美的生物世界;祂的创造物也必然会是完美的;当然完美的定义也是从人出发的完美

如果你说的进化论指的是同源进化,那这就是俺质疑的出发点!有些科学家认为它是荒谬的,有些仅仅将它视为科学假设--这两种还不少,但是作为一个整体的科学界却将“同源进化”认定是“不可置疑”的真理,貌似此楼前面的CFCer也是这样

然也,尽然进化论仅是一个局部,那么我们该怎样才能看清楚全貌?前面解释过了,俺没有假设这些引用的观点是正确的,更加没有假设这些局部观点背后代表的完整理论是正确的。俺引用的目的仅仅在展示科学界的分歧

你这段话中所描述的神和宗教的前提仍然是:神是不存在的,所以神是人的逻辑的产物;如果神是存在的,神当然不是人的逻辑的产物,人既然是神创造的,人怎么有能力思考人没有任何知识的另外一个世界?

[FONT=宋体]谢谢。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]“人既然是神创造的,人怎么有能力思考人没有任何知识的另外一个世界?”[/FONT][FONT=宋体]—问得好,可惜你不应该问我,而是应该反问你自己。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]假使你的逻辑成立(不管是什么逻辑),那么,请问,对这么一个“人没有任何知识的另外一个世界”,你又哪来的发言权?你应该完全不知道是否有这种“神”存在;你应该质疑任何人提到的关于这种“神”的言论,哪怕那些人声称他们是“神二代”,是“上帝”派来的使者,是“上帝”的儿子;哪怕这些言论被印刷成书,封面上写着“圣经”两字;你甚至应该没有任何概念去对应这种你没有任何知识的东西,因为你一旦使用“神”这种人的逻辑产生的概念,你就在假装对这种“人没有任何知识的另外一个世界”还拥有一些知识,包括影射其存在这么一个重大知识。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]你在前面建议“[/FONT][FONT=宋体]如果科学还没有进步到能够完全认清这些问题,就诚实地说不知道”,那么你自己呢,怎么还会说出[/FONT][FONT=宋体]“万能的神当然有能力创造完美的生物世界”这种话[/FONT][FONT=宋体]—你不是说人没有任何知识吗,关于“另外一个世界”?且不说你是如何知道有这么一个“另外世界”的,你怎么知道这个“神”是万能的?你怎么知道这个“神”有能力创造完美的生物世界?是你用“人的逻辑”推理的,还是“祂”昨晚给你发电邮亲口告诉你的?对这么一个“人没有任何知识的另外一个世界”,你还使用“当然”这种词,虽然我不得不承认这种话(像世上所有人话那样)确实也是人的逻辑的产物,但我真希望有种“非人逻辑”,可以把这种话归类到那里面去。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]你提到我的“潜台词”,还说我跟你谈的是我“自己想象的神”,说明你可能没看懂我前面贴过的那些讨论。我很早就已经把话说得不能再明了了,不妨再说一遍:世上所有存在只是一样东西,能而已。你可能看到的任何形式的存在,都是能量的存在形式之一;你没看到或者不可能看到的任何存在,都是能量的存在形式之一;你可能想象到的任何存在,都是能量的存在形式之一。我根本不用假设“神”存在或不存在,就好像我根本不用担心科学家还会在海底发现什么奇形怪状的神秘海洋生物来证伪“海洋里有海洋生物”这个论断。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]“如果神是存在的,神当然不是人的逻辑的产物”[/FONT][FONT=宋体]—这句话当然又是错的。不要说行踪诡秘的god,就说人人知道到处存在的dog好了,这个关于狗的概念,以及所有与这个概念有关的关于狗的知识,都是人的逻辑的产物。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]你在跟我谈“圣经中描述的神”?用我的逻辑判断,那当然是人的逻辑的产物。用你自己的逻辑来判断,既然被“神”创造的人没有能力思考“人没有任何知识的另外一个世界”,这圣经描述的神就同样当然也是人的逻辑的产物了。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]要想看清全貌,首先要把基本概念和“人的逻辑”搞清楚。比如,放眼望去世上有那么多形式各异的存在,再加上还没有被人眼发现的东西,再加上人眼可能永远看不见的东西,你就要问自己这么一个基本问题:存在本质是什么?世上有一万种存在,两种存在,一种存在,还是什么都不存在?符合人的逻辑的正确答案,只有一个。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]“圣经中描述的神”主要是人的等级思维的产物,每种形式的存在都按照其存在形式被分了等级,比如大便、蚊子什么的就垫底,动植物高一些,人再高一些,而高高在上站在没人看得见的顶端的便是拥有生杀大权的万能的“上帝”[/FONT][FONT=宋体](highest being, supreme being)。对付这种“独裁制度”的最佳逻辑武器,就是“民主思维”—就像庄子齐物论提到的,无论外表如何不同,本质都是一样的。被人吃的食物,吃食物的人,人拉出来的东西,肥料,空气,水,阳光,太阳,不明飞行物,可能存在的外星人,等等等等,都是不同形式存在的能量而已。这些不同形式的存在才是“[/FONT][FONT=宋体]科学研究生命/物种起源的起点”,跟假设“神”存不存在无关,而科学最终会得出的结论,就是所有存在,不管其存在形式有何不同,都是同一存在。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]你收集的关于进化论的讨论,似乎恰好说明了跟你的“终极目标”相反的情况:假设你的判断成立,进化论确实已经变成了科学界的一个信仰,那么,按照某个“关于另外一个世界”的信仰的做法,科学家们就不用干什么寻找挖掘化石的苦力活了,只需整天坐在办公室里信仰进化论就行了,但你自己提供的事实却证明科学家们仍然在研究探讨进化论,仍然在操心化石问题,仍然在寻找新的解释新的理论。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]相对而言,质疑进化论并不是一件太难的事,更难的,或者说是效率更高的一件事,是提出一个你想代替进化论的理论。比如说,你可以通过虔诚祷告把“上帝”祂老人家从另外一个世界请过来,披上白大褂,在纽约时代广场当着一批科学家的面当着全球各大新闻媒体的摄影机捏几个泥人,吹口气把它们变成他们,进化论就寿终正寝了。你对进化论这么不满意,那能不能拿出一个比进化论更科学的理论[/FONT][FONT=宋体]—注意,不是信仰,不然你也用不着指责进化论是科学界的一个信仰了—给我们见识一下呢?[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]当今的科学理论,尤其是在需要牵涉综合各门学科知识的领域,确实存在很多严重问题,相比之下,进化论并不是你认为的最重要的科学结论。最重要的战场,是涵盖存在本质、基本粒子、宏观宇宙演化等的宇宙学理论,也就是上面提到的全貌,但如果你只是收集材料证明霍金等人的宇宙学理论已经变成了科学界的一个信仰,却又提不出一个能够更好更完美解释宇宙存在的科学理论,那霍金及其理论还是会继续被人崇拜下去的。被你质疑的进化论也一样。[/FONT]
 
这是个可以得诺贝尔奖的试验:cool:

soaring 说:
相对而言,质疑进化论并不是一件太难的事,更难的,或者说是效率更高的一件事,是提出一个你想代替进化论的理论。比如说,你可以通过虔诚祷告把“上帝”祂老人家从另外一个世界请过来,披上白大褂,在纽约时代广场当着一批科学家的面当着全球各大新闻媒体的摄影机捏几个泥人,吹口气把它们变成他们,进化论就寿终正寝了。你对进化论这么不满意,那能不能拿出一个比进化论更科学的理论—注意,不是信仰,不然你也用不着指责进化论是科学界的一个信仰了—给我们见识一下呢?
 
[FONT=宋体]“人既然是神创造的,人怎么有能力思考人没有任何知识的另外一个世界?”[/FONT][FONT=宋体]—问得好,可惜你不应该问我,而是应该反问你自己。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]假使你的逻辑成立(不管是什么逻辑),那么,请问,对这么一个“人没有任何知识的另外一个世界”,你又哪来的发言权?你应该完全不知道是否有这种“神”存在;你应该质疑任何人提到的关于这种“神”的言论,哪怕那些人声称他们是“神二代”,是“上帝”派来的使者,是“上帝”的儿子;哪怕这些言论被印刷成书,封面上写着“圣经”两字;你甚至应该没有任何概念去对应这种你没有任何知识的东西,因为你一旦使用“神”这种人的逻辑产生的概念,你就在假装对这种“人没有任何知识的另外一个世界”还拥有一些知识,包括影射其存在这么一个重大知识。[/FONT]

将两个概念完全混淆了!我们能够看到的这个客观世界,人有眼去看,耳去听,手去摸,可以有consciousness去感受,可以有科学的发现,同样也有圣经的启示,怎么是毫无知识?不过这确是个好问题: 怎么分辨神是真的,为什么认定圣经是神的默示?俺对自己有一个交代,但没有能力回答这个问题,显然这不是一个可以通过科学回答的,也不是一个简单的逻辑或者哲学问题,所以略过吧

“人怎么有能力思考人没有任何知识的另外一个世界?”在前文中,这句话放在一个特定的语境下:神从哪里来的?圣经说神是自在永在,神那一边的世界俺自认没有能力理解,也没有能力想象

[FONT=宋体]你在前面建议“[/FONT][FONT=宋体]如果科学还没有进步到能够完全认清这些问题,就诚实地说不知道”,那么你自己呢,怎么还会说出[/FONT][FONT=宋体]“万能的神当然有能力创造完美的生物世界”这种话[/FONT][FONT=宋体]—你不是说人没有任何知识吗,关于“另外一个世界”?且不说你是如何知道有这么一个“另外世界”的,你怎么知道这个“神”是万能的?你怎么知道这个“神”有能力创造完美的生物世界?是你用“人的逻辑”推理的,还是“祂”昨晚给你发电邮亲口告诉你的?对这么一个“人没有任何知识的另外一个世界”,你还使用“当然”这种词,虽然我不得不承认这种话(像世上所有人话那样)确实也是人的逻辑的产物,但我真希望有种“非人逻辑”,可以把这种话归类到那里面去。[/FONT]

如上,不要混淆“这个世界”和“另一个世界”的概念。科学的基本方法是自下向上,所以必须有一说一,有二说二;基督教是自顶向下的,圣经可以“毫无根据”地做任何宣称。如上,如何认识神是一个完全与本楼无关的话题,也不是俺有能力谈的

[FONT=宋体]你提到我的“潜台词”,还说我跟你谈的是我“自己想象的神”,说明你可能没看懂我前面贴过的那些讨论。我很早就已经把话说得不能再明了了,不妨再说一遍:世上所有存在只是一样东西,能而已。你可能看到的任何形式的存在,都是能量的存在形式之一;你没看到或者不可能看到的任何存在,都是能量的存在形式之一;你可能想象到的任何存在,都是能量的存在形式之一。我根本不用假设“神”存在或不存在,就好像我根本不用担心科学家还会在海底发现什么奇形怪状的神秘海洋生物来证伪“海洋里有海洋生物”这个论断。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]“如果神是存在的,神当然不是人的逻辑的产物”[/FONT][FONT=宋体]—这句话当然又是错的。不要说行踪诡秘的god,就说人人知道到处存在的dog好了,这个关于狗的概念,以及所有与这个概念有关的关于狗的知识,都是人的逻辑的产物。[/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]你在跟我谈“圣经中描述的神”?用我的逻辑判断,那当然是人的逻辑的产物。用你自己的逻辑来判断,既然被“神”创造的人没有能力思考“人没有任何知识的另外一个世界”,这圣经描述的神就同样当然也是人的逻辑的产物了。[/FONT]

类似的话我已经讲了至少两遍了-- 俺绝对不是希望你承认神的存在,而是你在谈神的话题时必须有这个假设。就象大人回答小朋友一个问题:西游的孙悟空与三国的吕布谁厉害?我们都知道一个是虚构一个是加工过的,小朋友可能认为他们都是真的。但是在回答这个问题的时候,必须也是能够分别站在西游和三国的立场谈论这两个人物,并且在给出的结论中分别限定了所在的上下文,这个结论也是有意义的。这与观点如何毫无关系,而是Objectively or Subjectively 的沟通方式的问题

[FONT=宋体]要想看清全貌,首先要把基本概念和“人的逻辑”搞清楚。比如,放眼望去世上有那么多形式各异的存在,再加上还没有被人眼发现的东西,再加上人眼可能永远看不见的东西,你就要问自己这么一个基本问题:存在本质是什么?世上有一万种存在,两种存在,一种存在,还是什么都不存在?符合人的逻辑的正确答案,只有一个。[/FONT]

符合人的逻辑的正确答案只有一个,如果神是存在的,会是另外一个答案。扯不清的,也与本楼无关,我们略过吧

[FONT=宋体]“圣经中描述的神”主要是人的等级思维的产物,每种形式的存在都按照其存在形式被分了等级,比如大便、蚊子什么的就垫底,动植物高一些,人再高一些,而高高在上站在没人看得见的顶端的便是拥有生杀大权的万能的“上帝”[/FONT][FONT=宋体](highest being, supreme being)。对付这种“独裁制度”的最佳逻辑武器,就是“民主思维”—就像庄子齐物论提到的,无论外表如何不同,本质都是一样的。被人吃的食物,吃食物的人,人拉出来的东西,肥料,空气,水,阳光,太阳,不明飞行物,可能存在的外星人,等等等等,都是不同形式存在的能量而已。这些不同形式的存在才是“[/FONT][FONT=宋体]科学研究生命/物种起源的起点”,跟假设“神”存不存在无关,而科学最终会得出的结论,就是所有存在,不管其存在形式有何不同,都是同一存在。[/FONT]

理由如上,略过吧

[FONT=宋体]你收集的关于进化论的讨论,似乎恰好说明了跟你的“终极目标”相反的情况:假设你的判断成立,进化论确实已经变成了科学界的一个信仰,那么,按照某个“关于另外一个世界”的信仰的做法,科学家们就不用干什么寻找挖掘化石的苦力活了,只需整天坐在办公室里信仰进化论就行了,但你自己提供的事实却证明科学家们仍然在研究探讨进化论,仍然在操心化石问题,仍然在寻找新的解释新的理论。[/FONT]

科学界一直在努力,一直有新的发现,宏进化的理论一直在变,但是结论一直没有变。有趣的是,86年的公开信认定进化论是“不可置疑的” -- The evolutionary history of organisms has been as extensively tested and as thoroughly corroborated as any biological concept;The theory of evolution is quite rightly called the greatest unifying theory in biology. 事实上这两段话是信中分别引用1970年和1973年的论文。

单从这封信看,最晚1970年开始至少已经有部分科学家认定同源进化必然发生,最晚1986年科学界作为一个整体确定了进化论的成立(extensively tested,thoroughly corroborated, greatest unifying theory),Gould的间断平衡理论是70年代提出,此时正与传统的渐进式进化打得不可开交,对传统观念上的过渡型化石的理解提出了强大的挑战,同时后来被认为是同源进化最有力的分子生物学刚起步不久,过渡性化石是当时同源进化最重要(?)的支撑理由,这是不是有点扯?

86年的信的语气听起来比2005年公开信更加肯定,尽管此时有了DNA的更加有力的武器:Logically derived from confirmable evidence, evolution is understood to be the result of an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection. As the foundation of modern biology, its indispensable role has been further strengthened by the capacity to study DNA.

逻辑上这仍然可能成立,真正的问题在于,科学界同源进化必然存在的结论是由同源进化的研究提供的支持,同源进化过程研究的成熟程度必然决定了同源进化这个结论的可靠性,后面会继续分析这个观点

将这个过程与基督教的信仰做一下比较:首先认定圣经是真理,两千年来基督徒不断学习,不断产生对圣经新的解释,后面的解释可能推翻前面的,但是始终如一认定圣经是真理。不同的是,基督教中,圣经是自我宣称和静态的,而科学结论的宣称却必须100%依赖于支撑的研究成果,下面的支撑研究一直在变,但是“上层建筑”却一直岿然不动。所以进化论是一种特殊的科学教

俺认识到单单分析化石记录有点单薄,没有分析遗传/DNA这些东西,还是说服力不够。不过这个东西忒难了, 以后再说吧

[FONT=宋体]相对而言,质疑进化论并不是一件太难的事,更难的,或者说是效率更高的一件事,是提出一个你想代替进化论的理论。比如说,你可以通过虔诚祷告把“上帝”祂老人家从另外一个世界请过来,披上白大褂,在纽约时代广场当着一批科学家的面当着全球各大新闻媒体的摄影机捏几个泥人,吹口气把它们变成他们,进化论就寿终正寝了。你对进化论这么不满意,那能不能拿出一个比进化论更科学的理论[/FONT][FONT=宋体]—注意,不是信仰,不然你也用不着指责进化论是科学界的一个信仰了—给我们见识一下呢?[/FONT]

俺的替代理论不需要讲,应该可以猜出来吧?俺没有看过任何一篇创造论的文章或者视频,包括神父贴出来的那些:blowzy:,因为俺认为从科学的角度,至少现在不可能证明,也没有能力推翻创造论。还是回到科学来,实事求是应该是重要的科学精神之一,进化论是否被推翻,跟是否有一个“更好”的或者“能够被证明”的替代理论完完全全无关的。现在的科学如果对生命的起源、物种起源仍然停留在hypothesis,就诚实地承认。科学界对待进化论的态度,应该也独立于对创造论的批评,创造论是否伪科学,与进化论是否成立一毛钱关系都没有

[FONT=宋体]当今的科学理论,尤其是在需要牵涉综合各门学科知识的领域,确实存在很多严重问题,相比之下,进化论并不是你认为的最重要的科学结论。最重要的战场,是涵盖存在本质、基本粒子、宏观宇宙演化等的宇宙学理论,也就是上面提到的全貌,但如果你只是收集材料证明霍金等人的宇宙学理论已经变成了科学界的一个信仰,却又提不出一个能够更好更完美解释宇宙存在的科学理论,那霍金及其理论还是会继续被人崇拜下去的。被你质疑的进化论也一样。[/FONT]

俺是何等样人? 竟敢 。。。 :blink::blink:
 
后退
顶部