好笑的基督教

将两个概念完全混淆了!我们能够看到的这个客观世界,人有眼去看,耳去听,手去摸,可以有consciousness去感受,可以有科学的发现,同样也有圣经的启示,怎么是毫无知识?不过这确是个好问题: 怎么分辨神是真的,为什么认定圣经是神的默示?俺对自己有一个交代,但没有能力回答这个问题,显然这不是一个可以通过科学回答的,也不是一个简单的逻辑或者哲学问题,所以略过吧

“人怎么有能力思考人没有任何知识的另外一个世界?”在前文中,这句话放在一个特定的语境下:神从哪里来的?圣经说神是自在永在,神那一边的世界俺自认没有能力理解,也没有能力想象

如上,不要混淆“这个世界”和“另一个世界”的概念。科学的基本方法是自下向上,所以必须有一说一,有二说二;基督教是自顶向下的,圣经可以“毫无根据”地做任何宣称。如上,如何认识神是一个完全与本楼无关的话题,也不是俺有能力谈的

类似的话我已经讲了至少两遍了-- 俺绝对不是希望你承认神的存在,而是你在谈神的话题时必须有这个假设。就象大人回答小朋友一个问题:西游的孙悟空与三国的吕布谁厉害?我们都知道一个是虚构一个是加工过的,小朋友可能认为他们都是真的。但是在回答这个问题的时候,必须也是能够分别站在西游和三国的立场谈论这两个人物,并且在给出的结论中分别限定了所在的上下文,这个结论也是有意义的。这与观点如何毫无关系,而是Objectively or Subjectively 的沟通方式的问题

符合人的逻辑的正确答案只有一个,如果神是存在的,会是另外一个答案。扯不清的,也与本楼无关,我们略过吧

理由如上,略过吧

科学界一直在努力,一直有新的发现,宏进化的理论一直在变,但是结论一直没有变。有趣的是,86年的公开信认定进化论是“不可置疑的” -- The evolutionary history of organisms has been as extensively tested and as thoroughly corroborated as any biological concept;The theory of evolution is quite rightly called the greatest unifying theory in biology. 事实上这两段话是信中分别引用1970年和1973年的论文。

单从这封信看,最晚1970年开始至少已经有部分科学家认定同源进化必然发生,最晚1986年科学界作为一个整体确定了进化论的成立(extensively tested,thoroughly corroborated, greatest unifying theory),Gould的间断平衡理论是70年代提出,此时正与传统的渐进式进化打得不可开交,对传统观念上的过渡型化石的理解提出了强大的挑战,同时后来被认为是同源进化最有力的分子生物学刚起步不久,过渡性化石是当时同源进化最重要(?)的支撑理由,这是不是有点扯?

86年的信的语气听起来比2005年公开信更加肯定,尽管此时有了DNA的更加有力的武器:Logically derived from confirmable evidence, evolution is understood to be the result of an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection. As the foundation of modern biology, its indispensable role has been further strengthened by the capacity to study DNA.

逻辑上这仍然可能成立,真正的问题在于,科学界同源进化必然存在的结论是由同源进化的研究提供的支持,同源进化过程研究的成熟程度必然决定了同源进化这个结论的可靠性,后面会继续分析这个观点

将这个过程与基督教的信仰做一下比较:首先认定圣经是真理,两千年来基督徒不断学习,不断产生对圣经新的解释,后面的解释可能推翻前面的,但是始终如一认定圣经是真理。不同的是,基督教中,圣经是自我宣称和静态的,而科学结论的宣称却必须100%依赖于支撑的研究成果,下面的支撑研究一直在变,但是“上层建筑”却一直岿然不动。所以进化论是一种特殊的科学教

俺认识到单单分析化石记录有点单薄,没有分析遗传/DNA这些东西,还是说服力不够。不过这个东西忒难了, 以后再说吧

俺的替代理论不需要讲,应该可以猜出来吧?俺没有看过任何一篇创造论的文章或者视频,包括神父贴出来的那些:blowzy:,因为俺认为从科学的角度,至少现在不可能证明,也没有能力推翻创造论。还是回到科学来,实事求是应该是重要的科学精神之一,进化论是否被推翻,跟是否有一个“更好”的或者“能够被证明”的替代理论完完全全无关的。现在的科学如果对生命的起源、物种起源仍然停留在hypothesis,就诚实地承认。科学界对待进化论的态度,应该也独立于对创造论的批评,创造论是否伪科学,与进化论是否成立一毛钱关系都没有

俺是何等样人? 竟敢 。。。 :blink::blink:
“将两个概念完全混淆了”—是吗,且不论是否是我真的混淆了哪两个概念还是你根本没有理解或者不愿理解我那段话,两个或更多个概念之间之所以有可能被混淆,正因为它们都是人的思维产生的概念,尽管这些“人的概念”可以是关于任何存在或不存在的东西,比如阿狗阿猫,比如蜘蛛侠蝙蝠侠,比如尼斯湖怪天山雪人,比如“这个世界”“另一个世界”,比如万能的上帝百万能的蚂蚁亿万能的大象。

每逢遇到关键之处,就说“与本楼无关”,就说说不清楚,就说“略过”,这些都是基督教信徒的拿手好戏,虽然他们的招牌护身符是“信仰”一词。

终于看到你把鸵鸟头埋进沙里,把狐狸尾巴露在外面,回到“好笑的基督教”这一主题,也算是阿Q复活努力又画了一个圈。原版阿Q也是不知道他是何等样人,不知道他本来是何等高贵一个秀才的。

果然有些可悲。在人类发展史上,各色宗教固然有其积极的一面,比如通过信仰的力量帮助人类在极其艰苦的环境下生存下来,或者在一个看似无秩无序的世界里指明一个方向通往一个目的地,引导人度过一生,哪怕那个方向是人为的、目的地是虚构的。然而代价也很大,比如人性的扭曲,比如理性的泯灭。Never send to know for whom the bell tolls;it tolls for thee.
 
虽然没啥道理,但是阿Q的长篇大论非把对手整米糊不可!
 
阿Q很奇怪,总纠缠在'进化论'3个字上。其实有人反对'进化论',还认为'人类6000年',还反对'物竞天择',反对一切异化,甚至反对'突变'。
 
进化论和基督教有关系吗?有些莫名。
 
“将两个概念完全混淆了”—是吗,且不论是否是我真的混淆了哪两个概念还是你根本没有理解或者不愿理解我那段话,两个或更多个概念之间之所以有可能被混淆,正因为它们都是人的思维产生的概念,尽管这些“人的概念”可以是关于任何存在或不存在的东西,比如阿狗阿猫,比如蜘蛛侠蝙蝠侠,比如尼斯湖怪天山雪人,比如“这个世界”“另一个世界”,比如万能的上帝百万能的蚂蚁亿万能的大象。

每逢遇到关键之处,就说“与本楼无关”,就说说不清楚,就说“略过”,这些都是基督教信徒的拿手好戏,虽然他们的招牌护身符是“信仰”一词。

终于看到你把鸵鸟头埋进沙里,把狐狸尾巴露在外面,回到“好笑的基督教”这一主题,也算是阿Q复活努力又画了一个圈。原版阿Q也是不知道他是何等样人,不知道他本来是何等高贵一个秀才的。

果然有些可悲。在人类发展史上,各色宗教固然有其积极的一面,比如通过信仰的力量帮助人类在极其艰苦的环境下生存下来,或者在一个看似无秩无序的世界里指明一个方向通往一个目的地,引导人度过一生,哪怕那个方向是人为的、目的地是虚构的。然而代价也很大,比如人性的扭曲,比如理性的泯灭。Never send to know for whom the bell tolls;it tolls for thee.

俺已经尽能力回答了能够回答的问题,将希望表达的观点讲完了。剩下对观点的辩护、误解的互相指责、攻击,俺就认为大可不必,讨论就到此吧
 
阿Q很奇怪,总纠缠在'进化论'3个字上。其实有人反对'进化论',还认为'人类6000年',还反对'物竞天择',反对一切异化,甚至反对'突变'。

你应该质疑楼主,标题是“好笑的基督徒”,楼主的证据是“100 Reasons Why Evolution is So Stupid”,俺顺着楼主的思路提供2 cents
 
进化论和基督教有关系吗?有些莫名。

同问 :p

不过纵观网上科学教对进化论的辩护,中途转向对基督教或者创造论进行攻击,是一个“标准程序”,还有另外几个标准程序本楼貌似还没有出现
 
同问 :p

不过纵观网上科学教对进化论的辩护,中途转向对基督教或者创造论进行攻击,是一个“标准程序”,还有另外几个标准程序本楼貌似还没有出现

这是因为这些科学教教徒们无法理性地为号称科学并且代表科学的进化论辩护,更别说提供任何经得起检验的科学证据了。

理性辩护不成,只好借助非理性攻击勉强支撑了。:)
 
继续看看当代宏进化论的重要代表人物哈佛的Gould和牛津Darkins两人的观点分歧.Stephen Jay Gould的松散阵营包括另外几个大老:Niles Eldredge, George Gaylord Simpson, Ernst Mayr, Richard Darkins这边的松散阵营包括: W. D. Hamilton, Robert Trivers, Steven Pinker, Daniel Dennett等等,松散阵营的意思是真的很松散。。。

中文资料古尔德一道金斯之争的核心问题进化生物学史上道金斯与古尔德的世纪争论比较易懂,第一篇文章的简单摘要:

古尔德的观点:

进化中
的进步往往被定义为生命朝向解剖复杂度更高、神经系统更精致 、行为方式上更有本领及更灵活等 的一种趋势,这种定义是人类中心主义的表现。他认为生命进化的历程不以进步为其根本特征 ,并不伴随生命在复杂度和适应度等方面的累积性、进步性的增长

将生命进化的历史视为一种“东西”向某处运动的看法根本就错了,最好将其看作“一个完整体系内(一个“满堂红”)变化程度的增加或减少”。传统看法习惯于将注意力集中在晚近出现的少数最复杂的有机体那里,而且把这些有机体复杂性的增加作为进步的证据 ,强加给整个生命进化的历史,从而忽视了细菌这种简单生命形式在几十亿年间一直都是地球上的模式生物这一事实。在古尔德看来 ,这是一个典型的“尾巴摇狗”的谬误[8J。古尔德也反对将适应 度增加作为生命进步的标准,这涉及他对自然选择机制以及适应现象的理解。

古尔德认为适应主义者没有区分清楚某性状当前的效用与起源的因由之间的关系,没有充分考量自然选择所受到的多种限制、适应与自然选择的分离、随机现象等等,从而对自然选择的力量以及适应的普遍性过于乐观。古尔德强调微观进化(物种层次)与宏观进化(物种以上层次 )的区分,通过援引众多化石证据来说明生命在大时间尺度 (即深度时间)内的宏观进化往往与个体的适应水平无关(比如在大灭绝期间),而是更多地依赖于偶然性或者发生在物种水平上的选择事件。因此,基于适应局部环境与否而进行的自然选择在解释进化上是必要的,但不是充分的。他反对外推主义 (extrapolationism)的应 用——适应度在微观进化层次上的累积性增加不能扩展到宏观进化的层次,况且这种累积性增加是否存在以及能否作为进步的标准都大可怀疑

面对进化本身的层序性,他提倡多元化的解释方式。适应不是生命进化的惟一内容,不能概括其全貌,甚至在生命树的塑型方面,适应不占据重要地位

道金斯的观点:

道金斯出示了生物学中的很多实例,试图表明这些精妙 、复杂、看似没有“预先设计”就无法完成的结构 ,是怎样经由自然选择的作用逐渐形成的

不管长期还是短期,进化都是以进步为其根本特征的

在大多数谱系中,都存在朝向“某种东西”的进化性进步 ,虽然各个谱系的这个目标各不相 同。进步不是古尔德所谓的“统计学上的幻象”,而是在进化中几乎无处不在的事实

进化在短期和中期阶段内明显是进步的
 
古道之争号称世纪之争,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawkins_vs._Gould, Kim Sterelny专门写一本专门介绍这两人或者两个学派的分歧

部分摘录书中对Gould和Darkins分歧的总结部分:

In Dawkins' argument, selection acts on lineages of replicators, which are mostly but not exclusively genes. Ideas and skills are the replicators in animals capable of social learning, and "the earliest replicators were certainly not genes". (p. 167) Genetic competition occurs through vehicle-building alliances, with selection dependent on repeatable influences on those vehicles (指生物). Other genetic replication strategies include Outlaws, the prospects of which are enhanced at the expense of vehicle adaptiveness. And extended phenotype(表型) genes advantageously enhance their environment. Evolution's central explanatory imperative is the existence of complex adaptation, which can only be explained by natural selection. This complex adaptation evolves gradually, with occasional replication errors resulting in large but survivable phenotypic change. Humans are unusual species in that they are vehicles for memes as well as genes, although humans are not exempt from evolutionary biological explanations.

Extrapolationism (外推主义——适应度在微观进化层次上的累积性) is a sound working theory, with most evolutionary patterns the result of microevolutionary change over vast geological time. Major animal lineages are the result of ordinary speciation processes, although possibility-expanding changes may result in some form of lineage-level selection.

In contrast, Gould sees selection as usually acting on organisms in a local population, although in theory and practice, it can occur at many levels, with change at one level often affecting future options at other levels. Selection can occur at the group level, with some species lineages having characteristics which make extinction less likely, or speciation more likely. And while rare, selection can occur on genes within an organism. While selection is important, and requires understanding, it is just one of many factors explaining microevolutionary events and macroevolutionary patterns.

Further, complex adaptations are but one phenomenon explanations in evolutionary biology. Extrapolationism is not a good theory, with large-scale patterns in the history of life not explainable by extrapolating from measurable events in local populations...

Developmental biology (发育生物学) is relevant to this debate in another important way: "The role of selection in evolution. Gould is betting that when the facts of developmental biology are in, it will turn out that the evolutionary possibilities of most lineages are highly constrained", with some characteristics "frozen" into their respective lineages. "They are developmentally entrenched. That is, these basic organisational features are connected in development to most aspects of the organism's phenotype, and that makes them hard to change." (p. 172) And "since variation in these frozen-in features is unlikely, selection is not likely to be important in explaining their persistence", (p. 173) and Gould thinks 'frozen accidents' are important in explanations of evolutionary patterns found in the fossil record.

Conversely, Dawkins thinks that over time, selection can alter the range of a lineage's evolutionary possibilities. "So he thinks both that selection has a larger range of variation with which to work, and that when patterns do exist over long periods ... selection will have played a stabilising role." (p. 173) The integration of evolution and development "is the hottest of hot topics in contemporary evolutionary theory, and this issue is still most certainly open". In discussing the effects of mutations, Sterelny's "best current guess is that developmental biology probably does generate biases in the variation that is available to selection, and hence that evolutionary trajectories will often depend both on selection and these biases in supply" (173), vindicating Gould's view that developmental biology is crucial to explaining evolutionary patterns. (p. 174)

"But it is harder to see how to resolve some of Gould's other claims about the large-scale history of life. Despite the plausibility of the distinction between disparity and diversity, we are not close to constructing a good account of disparity and its measurement". (p. 174) Further, convergent evolution belies the unpredictability that Gould supposes. However, "most examples of convergence are not independent of evolutionary experiments. For they concern lineages with an enormous amount of shared history, and hence shared developmental potential", as in "the standard example of streamlining in marine reptiles, sharks, pelagic bony fish like the tuna, and dolphins". (p. 175) Further, "the scale is not large enough. The fact that eyes have often evolved does not show that had, say, the earliest chordates succumbed to a bit of bad luck (and become extinct), then vertebrate-like organisms wold have evolved again." (p. 175) Moreover, Gould's main concern is not with adaptive complexes, which are the source of the above, oft-cited examples, "but with body plans—basic ways of assembling organisms." Sterelny thinks that "we have to score Gould's contingency claims as: 'Don't know; and at this stage don't know how to find out'". (p. 175)

"So it has been hard to find really convincing examples of species-level properties that are built by species-level selection. The problem is to find: (i) traits that are aspects of species, not the organisms making up the species; (ii) traits that are relevant to extinction and survival; and (iii) traits that are transmitted to daughter species, granddaughter species and so forth". And "transmission to daughter species is especially problematic". (p. 177)
 
俺已经尽能力回答了能够回答的问题,将希望表达的观点讲完了。剩下对观点的辩护、误解的互相指责、攻击,俺就认为大可不必,讨论就到此吧



不是讲完了吗,怎么又来了:blink:?
 
古道之争号称世纪之争,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawkins_vs._Gould, Kim Sterelny专门写一本专门介绍这两人或者两个学派的分歧

部分摘录书中对Gould和Darkins分歧的总结部分:

In Dawkins' argument, selection acts on lineages of replicators, which are mostly but not exclusively genes. Ideas and skills are the replicators in animals capable of social learning, and "the earliest replicators were certainly not genes". (p. 167) Genetic competition occurs through vehicle-building alliances, with selection dependent on repeatable influences on those vehicles (指生物). Other genetic replication strategies include Outlaws, the prospects of which are enhanced at the expense of vehicle adaptiveness. And extended phenotype(表型) genes advantageously enhance their environment. Evolution's central explanatory imperative is the existence of complex adaptation, which can only be explained by natural selection. This complex adaptation evolves gradually, with occasional replication errors resulting in large but survivable phenotypic change. Humans are unusual species in that they are vehicles for memes as well as genes, although humans are not exempt from evolutionary biological explanations.

Extrapolationism (外推主义——适应度在微观进化层次上的累积性) is a sound working theory, with most evolutionary patterns the result of microevolutionary change over vast geological time. Major animal lineages are the result of ordinary speciation processes, although possibility-expanding changes may result in some form of lineage-level selection.

In contrast, Gould sees selection as usually acting on organisms in a local population, although in theory and practice, it can occur at many levels, with change at one level often affecting future options at other levels. Selection can occur at the group level, with some species lineages having characteristics which make extinction less likely, or speciation more likely. And while rare, selection can occur on genes within an organism. While selection is important, and requires understanding, it is just one of many factors explaining microevolutionary events and macroevolutionary patterns.

Further, complex adaptations are but one phenomenon explanations in evolutionary biology. Extrapolationism is not a good theory, with large-scale patterns in the history of life not explainable by extrapolating from measurable events in local populations...

Developmental biology (发育生物学) is relevant to this debate in another important way: "The role of selection in evolution. Gould is betting that when the facts of developmental biology are in, it will turn out that the evolutionary possibilities of most lineages are highly constrained", with some characteristics "frozen" into their respective lineages. "They are developmentally entrenched. That is, these basic organisational features are connected in development to most aspects of the organism's phenotype, and that makes them hard to change." (p. 172) And "since variation in these frozen-in features is unlikely, selection is not likely to be important in explaining their persistence", (p. 173) and Gould thinks 'frozen accidents' are important in explanations of evolutionary patterns found in the fossil record.

Conversely, Dawkins thinks that over time, selection can alter the range of a lineage's evolutionary possibilities. "So he thinks both that selection has a larger range of variation with which to work, and that when patterns do exist over long periods ... selection will have played a stabilising role." (p. 173) The integration of evolution and development "is the hottest of hot topics in contemporary evolutionary theory, and this issue is still most certainly open". In discussing the effects of mutations, Sterelny's "best current guess is that developmental biology probably does generate biases in the variation that is available to selection, and hence that evolutionary trajectories will often depend both on selection and these biases in supply" (173), vindicating Gould's view that developmental biology is crucial to explaining evolutionary patterns. (p. 174)

"But it is harder to see how to resolve some of Gould's other claims about the large-scale history of life. Despite the plausibility of the distinction between disparity and diversity, we are not close to constructing a good account of disparity and its measurement". (p. 174) Further, convergent evolution belies the unpredictability that Gould supposes. However, "most examples of convergence are not independent of evolutionary experiments. For they concern lineages with an enormous amount of shared history, and hence shared developmental potential", as in "the standard example of streamlining in marine reptiles, sharks, pelagic bony fish like the tuna, and dolphins". (p. 175) Further, "the scale is not large enough. The fact that eyes have often evolved does not show that had, say, the earliest chordates succumbed to a bit of bad luck (and become extinct), then vertebrate-like organisms wold have evolved again." (p. 175) Moreover, Gould's main concern is not with adaptive complexes, which are the source of the above, oft-cited examples, "but with body plans—basic ways of assembling organisms." Sterelny thinks that "we have to score Gould's contingency claims as: 'Don't know; and at this stage don't know how to find out'". (p. 175)

"So it has been hard to find really convincing examples of species-level properties that are built by species-level selection. The problem is to find: (i) traits that are aspects of species, not the organisms making up the species; (ii) traits that are relevant to extinction and survival; and (iii) traits that are transmitted to daughter species, granddaughter species and so forth". And "transmission to daughter species is especially problematic". (p. 177)

好资料!可以看出进化论有多麽的不可靠。
 
通过科学的手段去探索生命的起源,物种的起源。如果科学还没有进步到能够完全认清这些问题,就诚实地说不知道;科学研究生命/物种起源的起点不能是假设神不存在,否则进化论就是唯一可能的解释。那么,进化论研究就不是“试图通过观察、猜想、验证等手段来不断加深拓宽对客观世界的理解”,也不是“就像雪球越滚越大”,因为已经预设了同源进化必然存在。窃以为这不符合科学精神。这也是俺在此楼质疑的基本点。

......

你这段话中所描述的神和宗教的前提仍然是:神是不存在的,所以神是人的逻辑的产物;如果神是存在的,神当然不是人的逻辑的产物,人既然是神创造的,人怎么有能力思考人没有任何知识的另外一个世界?

没说的,赞一个!
 
芝麻开门。。。

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