作者：小熊胖胖 提交日期：2003-05-31 03:33:00
＿＿（这是我发在其他论坛上的一个原创贴子，但反响让我心酸，可能也是访问两量的问题吧，看看天涯的朋友们有何高见）
在一个国际网站上的语音聊天室做了自我介绍后，一个芝加哥人和我搭话，他曾做过律师，但是不喜欢这个职业总是伴随种种纠纷，他的兴趣是国际政治，希望有机会在大学里教书。我觉得他会是一个好老师，因为他说话很清晰，有条理，温文尔雅，和我认识的其他美国人一样，尽管对中国有些误解，但保持着谦恭的态度，和好奇心。
我们从市场经济谈到台湾问题，中间语音出了故障，我们就用打字接着聊。虽然有很大分歧，但是我已不再像两年前刚开始上国外聊天室那样像个炮仗似的一点就着，为了捍卫心中的祖国荣誉，不惜把人家骂的“狗血喷头”，我希望能通过翔实的内容和理想的思考把我所了解的中国介绍给那些有着误解的人们，而不是通过盲目的愤怒来加深误会。这点所谓的“贡献”也许微不足道，但我还是很认真，而且，我也喜欢聊天。
那天和那个叫做“丹”的美国人聊过后，我的心里沉重了好久，我希望我能有足够的证据和富有感染力的理性的论述，能让他了解台湾问题对于我们意味着什么，但我发现自己的辩说太苍白了，也许你可以说，你不是学国际政治的，你可以原谅自己，但是我做不到。就像听到有些日本人说南京大屠杀是捏造的，说他们的侵略是为了帮助我们共存共荣，我发现自己除了愤怒的热血和握紧的拳头之外，脑子里对这段历史却是只记得大概。只有爱国的热情是不够的，应该去了解历史，分析思考，这是比抵制“洋货”更有尊严也更有力量的做法吧。
花了两个晚上， 我把我和丹的对话中关于台湾的一段粗略地翻译出来，放在这里，另外把打字聊天的全文附在其后，几天过去了，我仍没有给丹回信，因为我希望听到同学们的看法，我真的有些茫然，不知道应该怎样说服他，甚至说服自己，我在寻找理由，希望读到贴子的你，如果你也愿意以理性的思考和从小事做起的执著来爱我们的祖国，给我你的回答。
谢谢！
（以下是我们谈话中关于台湾的部分）
丹：既然我们谈到了有关政治的话题，我可以问你一个政治方面的问题吗？
我：可以啊，请吧。
我：我不介意的。
丹：谢谢。
丹：你提到了“台湾问题”。作为一个西方人，我很难理解中国所谓的台湾问题。如果允许，我很想听听你对“台湾问题”的看法。
我：大陆方面的观点是，台湾岛是属于中国的。
丹：但是，纵观历史，中国的版图已数次更改。
我：所以，我们认为，尽管许多西方国家将台湾视作独立国家，我们并不想分裂。（此句是接我自己的上一句话，因为聊天打字，有时会有时间差，造成句子错位，读时请多包涵-----翻译时注）
我：是的，我们还曾扩张到欧洲了呢。但这次不同了啊，因为两岸都是中国人，我们都深深地植根于中华历史的长河中。就像是你和你的兄弟，你们长久以来共同生活，而且将来也会携手并进，为什么要从此行同末路呢？并且，从政治角度考虑，是去台湾，对中国大陆是危险的。
丹：但是，在50年前的中国内战中，蒋介石的队伍实力，在台湾找到了避难所，建成了一个良好的社会，中国为什么不能接受这个事实呢? 此外，中国为自己再次统一的强烈欲望是不是付出了过大的代价？当今社会的主流是国家的分离和独立，据统计，在过去的50年中，独立国家的数目翻了一翻。
我：（接着自己的上一句―--翻译时注）（分裂台湾）也许是西藏分裂的开始，甚至中国的东北，那里曾是日本的殖民地。
我：首先，这些国家的独立并不能和台湾问题作类比，因为许多国家在沦为殖民地以前是独立的。
丹：也许当中国更加民主并且实行市场经济的时候，与台湾统一的可能性会增加的。如果我是台湾人，我会很担心在中国政府的统治下，我的生活质量会下降，就像现在一样。
我：其次（接我自己的上一句），台湾的繁荣有着客观的原因，国民党溃退到台湾时，几乎掠走了一切能拿的动的东西。（我也许可以查查数据）
我：你说的有道理，但是，这次的统一并不是简单的合并，就像香港那样，台湾可以保持生活水平和社会制度甚至军队。祖国的统一会给台湾人民带来幸福和财富的，但是，许多政客就要不能享受当国家首脑的良好感觉了。
我：在台湾，许多人是在1949年从大陆抛妻别子（背井离乡）来的。他们的家庭和家族都在那里，所以他们渴望统一。
丹：香港的例子很有趣……不过，香港的未来会怎样，我们还需等等看。我读到，在中国政府的统治下，香港很难保持自己的生活方式了。此外，对香港来说，不是因为和英国的合约到期了吗？他们的回归不是自愿的吧。
我：但是随着时间推移，情况也在变化。我并不觉得香港人的回归是不自愿的，在当今社会，没有人能强迫人民做不愿做的事。如果他们真的不愿意回归，那早就会发生激烈冲突了。
我：不管怎样，我所知道的都是政府提供的信息，也许我看问题并不全面。
丹：这样一点是清楚的，不愿意受中国统治的香港人可以离港，而且确实有一大批人离开了。对台湾而言，看来那里的人不愿意受中国政府统治。尽管是“亲兄弟”，他们愿意做邻居和好朋友，但是住在自己的房子里……
我：中国人“大一统”的观念是非常强的。
我：我想台湾的青年一代也许会有这样的想法，这个例子有点像当年的美国和英国，在美国人形成了自己的文化和价值观念时，就没有什么能维系他们和英国的殖民关系了。
丹：我认为这是重要的一点。在西方，我们视“多样化”重于“大一统”，因为这是自然力的驱使。
丹：在美英的例子中，问题在于对殖民地的管理权上，美国不喜欢让伦敦去做影响他们的生活的决定。而且他们在决议过程中没有发言权。
我：台湾的问题并不只是是否让这一个岛屿独立的问题。很长时间以来它是某些国家的“基地”这些国家想要以次来“控制”中国，然后再分裂她。
我：、关键问题是，台湾并不是中国的殖民地，而且，如果中国被分裂了，力量就会被削弱。
丹：我对你说的台湾的企图……有些疑惑，有什么证据能说明台湾有这些敌对意图呢？
我：（以下的回答可能是我理解错了丹的意思后，驴唇不对马嘴的答复，见笑了--------翻译时注）
我对台湾并没有敌意，事实上，我很想去那里玩儿，我有一些台湾网友，我们都是一个大陆的电影明星的影迷网站的会员。
丹：我想我们都同意，在毛泽东时代（我理解指文革时期----翻译时注），台湾太有理由反对统一了。
我：那个时代确实不好过。
我：中国大陆的政策并不是要打败台湾，而是增加合作和沟通。
丹：（接我的上上句话）可以想象那时的情景，而且，事实上是，中国度过那段艰难时代靠的是人民的力量。
我：没错，但是关于那个时代，并不是想西方人想象的那样简单，文革的发生有许多根源，毛主席犯的错误，中国的封建残余等等。
丹：我觉得中国政府采取沟通与合作的政策是最好不过的了。这样，可以发展友好关系和互惠互利，可是，看到中国又坚持合并，我能理解为什么台湾人感到大陆的威胁了。我觉得“一个民族，两套制度，两个国家”应该更容易接受。
我：你知道现在的俄罗斯，他们到底还是要一个领导人给予有些类似沙皇的集权领导。
我：（接丹的上面的问题）问题是，我们的政策是“一个国家，两种制度”，主权问题不容忽视。
我：失去台湾将是祖国分裂的开始。
丹：什么是主权？……难道不是一小群号称有权统治权的人对人民的征服吗？
我：我曾经在一个小公司实习，共十个员工，一个来自新加坡，一个来自美国，一个挪威人，还有一个来自台湾，我们相处得很愉快，回避着那些政治问题，但是我感觉到，在他眼里，台湾是个国家。
我：（回答丹刚才说的主权问题）主权的意思就是中国人在自己的国家里管理自己的事，不被其他国家所利用。
我：主权还是世界上只有一个中国，台湾长久以来就是中国的一部分现在还是。
我：不管怎么说，我很希望去那里看看我的朋友，尝尝那的美食。
我：如果台湾独立了，很多中国人，我是说平民，都会反对的。
我：没有哪一个国家领导人敢做出这样的决定，大家会认为，他是中华民族的罪人。
丹：好的，我也相信人民应该自治，台湾人大概也这么想。你是不是说，为了保持种族的同质性，中国和台湾就应该被一起统治？尽管同种人口间联系紧密，但国家并不是单一种族的构成，如果那样的话，最后我们的国家要按照宗教信仰来划分了……
我：现在在中国已经是凌晨5点了，这一夜我聊得很开心，我爸爸起床了，我也快该下了。
我：这并不单单是种族问题。
丹：我也同意。我觉得中国的领导人陷入了自己的既定政策里无法脱身，因为他们倡导两岸统一长久以来都是那么坚定，想要改变立场是很难的。
我：当时的台湾也不是在一种正常的情况下分出去的。那是因为战争，和一些别的国家的阴谋。
丹：但过去毕竟是过去……我还是找不出提倡统一的合理性。这个政策好像立足于情感而非理智……
我：（接丹的“我也同意”一句）对我们平民来说，改变立场同样很难。
丹：有没有这种可能，两岸统一对于中国来说一部分是他的支配欲望的造成的。比如说，扩张领土，好称霸世界？
我：我恐怕很快就得下线了，你是个很邦的朋友，我们可以通过Email保持联系？
我：我觉得中国只是在求生存，而不是称霸。
丹：好吧……很乐意……我的邮箱地址是……
我：我们并不是在强迫外国并入中国，我们是在收复失地。
丹：但是，中国没有台湾也能够生存的……台湾对于中国的生存并不是必须。
我：我的地址是……
我：我会再找些这方面的信息，来回答你。
（后面就是一些寒暄，丹问了我的名字，也告诉我了他的名字，他向我道了晚安，其实应该是早安了。）
（以下是我们的英文原文，你可以掠过前面讨论经济的部分，后面台湾问题的那段话之前，我做了标记，yingyingbaobao是我在那里的网名，另一个就是丹）
ladude48bi: are you still there?......
yingyingbaobao: hi
yingyingbaobao: :“>
yingyingbaobao:
(
yingyingbaobao: i can
yingyingbaobao: i can
yingyingbaobao: i can’t hear you clearly
yingyingbaobao:
yingyingbaobao: the voice is not continious
yingyingbaobao: :-/
yingyingbaobao: can you try to speak again
yingyingbaobao: let me see if it is ok now?
yingyingbaobao: :-/
ladude48bi: maybe we need to type until the connection gets better
yingyingbaobao:
no problem
ladude48bi: ok...., even though i really like hearing your voice....
yingyingbaobao: i hope the man who speaks in english listenning test can talk as clearly as you
ladude48bi: but, anyway, i agree with what you said that the chinese economy needs to take the condition of the country into account
ladude48bi: lol..... i don’t think that you’ll have any problem with the english listening test...
yingyingbaobao: in this so called economy reform, the leaders emphasize on that“ we are going on a chinese featured way of socialism“
yingyingbaobao: but many people see it as the “capitalism“, we think china is learning from usa in many aspects
yingyingbaobao: people think we only make some small adjustment
ladude48bi: american “socialism“ is based on the theory that a rising tide lifts all boats
yingyingbaobao: :-/
yingyingbaobao: does it mean all the people work together and get the result equally?
ladude48bi: when the water level rises, every boat on the water rises too......, i.e. when the economy prospers, then everyone prospers...... unfortunately, however, not everyone always prospers to the same extent
yingyingbaobao: so some of them won’t work hard, because this system will make sure of their living?
ladude48bi: not exactly, the system is there to allow everyone to make a living, but it is up to the individual to achieve success
yingyingbaobao: yes, Deng Xiaoping, a famous chinese politician has a saying“ let some people become rich first“ , it is a new idea, because in the past ,we think people should share everything in socialist country
yingyingbaobao: maybe you mean the communism
yingyingbaobao: but not the socialism?
ladude48bi: in the U.S. the emphasis is on giving everyone the opportunity to succeed, and whether they succeed or not is up to them.....
yingyingbaobao: in communism, people all work hard and get what they need
yingyingbaobao:
,yes
yingyingbaobao: we are familiar with this, that ’s why we call usa a land of opportunity
yingyingbaobao: but when we talk about socialism, the emphasis is usually on the system of dividing the fruits
ladude48bi: communism, as i understand it, means that collective effort provides collective rewards (usually in the setting of a planned economy). As such, it seems to be against human nature, which prefers individual rewards for individual efforts.
yingyingbaobao: the theory is based on the assume that the human civilization is developed to a certain degree that everyone does his best and creat a lot of productions so everyone can get what they want then
yingyingbaobao: that’s why it seems to far from the reality
yingyingbaobao: it has its base that we have developed our sicience and technology to that degree and people are civilized they can work willingly and effeciently
ladude48bi: socialism, on the other hand, tries to minimize the gap between the rich and the poor, and is protective of disadvantaged elements of society. Since this usually requires governmental intervention in the operation of the markets, it has a tendency to inhibit the growth and development of markets. Also, taking care of the disadvantaged costs money, and therefore socialism is often a heavy burden on socialistic economies.
yingyingbaobao: the idea of socialism can simply be said as“ everybody tries his best , and the productions will be divided according to their work,“ it is not very far from the reality.
yingyingbaobao: yes
yingyingbaobao: i agree
yingyingbaobao: but in this big country, the gap between deferent areas is large,
ladude48bi: the problem i have with socialism is that i don’t believe that it motivates people enough. the best motivation is when people get to keep what they earn, and their earnings are in direct proportion to their efforts.
yingyingbaobao: we can’t leave all the people to fight for their living, the central gorvenment need something like making up the gap.
yingyingbaobao: yes, you get it!
yingyingbaobao: that’s why we began the reform in 1978
yingyingbaobao: to change the planned economy into market one,
yingyingbaobao: and at the same time
yingyingbaobao: the leaders emphasize on it is not “capitlaism“, because it gives people the impression that we are giving up socialism.
yingyingbaobao: in the past , people always relate planned economy to socialism and vice versa
yingyingbaobao: , i think you have got the main point of china’s reform and its problems
ladude48bi: i think that we agree, in principle, but we may differ to the extent that the government should make up the gap. When people know that the government will make up the gap, they have less incentive to work hard (human nature....); on the other hand, making up the gap costs a lot of money which depresses the growth of markets. Here, we tend to see the government’s role to be more the maintenance of the infrastructure that markets need to function - laws, roads, school, order, etc......., and we try to keep the government’s role (and, hence, its cost) to the absolute minimum required.
yingyingbaobao: yes, i agree, but a free market is not workable in china now.
ladude48bi: why not?
yingyingbaobao: we don’t have a complete and healthy system to keep the society in the order
yingyingbaobao: so the plan is needed
yingyingbaobao: and if you don’t help some undeveloped part,
yingyingbaobao: it is not good to maintan a solid china
yingyingbaobao: remember when russian first change into a free market?
yingyingbaobao: it is a mass
ladude48bi: what if the chinese government were to engage on large-scale rural development? that would create jobs, and then people would spend the money they earn to create more jobs, etc....., and, in addition, the rural development would create the infrastructure for future economic development in those areas.
yingyingbaobao: although it has almost overcome it, that hard period really bring a lot of pains to common people, so we prefer a amiable way
yingyingbaobao: right, there is a hot topic in china in these years is “ western explore strategy“
yingyingbaobao: we are trying to develop the western part of china,
yingyingbaobao: to change their poor conditions and stimulate china’s economy
yingyingbaobao: china
yingyingbaobao: mainland china has too much undeveloped areas, otherwise, we must be more prosperous than taiwan.
ladude48bi: russia’s first experiment with market economy was a disaster, because they sold government assets to political favorites......, but china need not repeat russia’s early mistakes
yingyingbaobao: of course, but it is not only that, the reform as a “coma“ is a disaster to people
ladude48bi: we say that you have to break eggs in order to make an omlette....., and, perhaps, a temporary “disaster“ for some people is necessary for long-term reform. By beeing overly concerned about temporary difficulties, long term change and improvement may be inhibited....
yingyingbaobao: but russian’s example is a disaster to too many people, china’s present economic reform has alse brought pains to some people who are used to get equal pay without work as hard as others. this kind of pain is necessary and not harmful, but to bring china to a mass is not workable
yingyingbaobao: we need peaceful and solid conditions to live and to keep china a whole one
ladude48bi: i’m not sure about the importance of keeping china as a whole...... that implies centralized government. yet, with such vast regional disparities as there are in china, a more decentralized government may be more advantageous. in a decentralized government, each region could implement policies that are best for its particular situation.
yingyingbaobao: i don’t mean we should emphasize on centralment, but china need a solid inner enviroment, we have the problems of taiwan or even tibet, if the country has drastic change and upset, china may lost its land
ladude48bi: i understand what you’re saying. interestingly, it demonstrates the connection between politics and the economy..... i.e. the economic policy of a country is a result of political considerations........
yingyingbaobao: yes, the economy is the base of politics
yingyingbaobao: chinese people see the “solid conditions“ very important
ladude48bi: no, it is the other way around: politics is the basis of economic policy....
yingyingbaobao: if the coutry is upset , the civilians will suffer first
ladude48bi: and the politicians may loose their jobs too...
yingyingbaobao: but economy is objective, so policy should respect the principle of economy
yingyingbaobao: yes
yingyingbaobao: but i believe they are not only doing this for their job,
ladude48bi: i agree
ladude48bi: but the interests of politicians are not always objective...
yingyingbaobao: they are sons of civilians and don’t want people to suffer, china has suffered a lot in recent hundreds of years
yingyingbaobao: i agree
(以下为有关台湾问题的谈话）
ladude48bi: having reached the issue of politics in our discussion, can i ask you a political question?
yingyingbaobao: go ahead, please
yingyingbaobao: i don’t mind
ladude48bi: thank you.
ladude48bi: you mentioned “the problem of taiwan.“ As a westener, i have a difficult time understanding what is china’s problem with taiwan. I would be interested to hear your pint of view on “the problem of taiwan.“
ladude48bi: err: point of view
yingyingbaobao: in mainland china’s idea, the island taiwan is part of china
ladude48bi: but, throughout history, china’s borders have changed many times
yingyingbaobao: so in our point, although many foreign countris see it as a individual country, we dont want to seperate
yingyingbaobao: yes, we have reached europe some time
yingyingbaobao: but this time is deferent
yingyingbaobao: both sides are chinese
yingyingbaobao: and we are deep rooted into the long history,
yingyingbaobao: just like your relation with your brother
yingyingbaobao: you have spent ages together and you can cooperate well in future, why should they become strangers?
yingyingbaobao: and consider in politic aspect
yingyingbaobao: to loose taiwan is dangerous for mainland china
ladude48bi: but, 50 years ago, there was a civil war, and Chan Kay Check’s forces lost, and found refuge in taiwan, where they developed a pretty good society. why cannot china accept this fact? and isn’t china paying too high of a price for its desire to reunite? the tendency in the world today is towards breaking up countries, as is evidenced by the fact that, in the last 50 years, the number of independent countries has doubled.
yingyingbaobao: and it may be the beginning of tibet, even the northeast of china, this part has once become the colony of japan.
yingyingbaobao: first, the independency of those countries are not like the case here, many of them were independent countries before they become colony
ladude48bi: maybe china’s chances of reuniting with taiwan will improve when china is more democratic and has a market economy. if i were taiwanese, i’d be very apprehensive of loosing my standard of living under chines control, as it presently exists.
yingyingbaobao: second, taiwan’s rich has many objective reasons, they brough almost all the worth that they can carry from mainland china to taiwan,(i can find you figures about it
yingyingbaobao: yes, what you said is reasonabe, but the renuion is not a simple one , it is like the case in hongkong , they can keep their living standards and social systems even the army
yingyingbaobao: the reunion will bring happieness and wealth to taiwanese, but the politicians there will loose their good feeling being a “coutry“’s leader
yingyingbaobao: in taiwan, many people left from mainland china in 1949 , they have their family(not only wife and children but a kindred) in mainland.they are looking forward to the reunion
ladude48bi: the analogy to hong kong is interesting....., but we still need to wait and see how well hong kong do in the future....... from what i’ve read, it is difficult for hong kong to keep its way of life under chinese control. Besides, in the hong kong case, wasn’t there a british lease that expired, so that the return to china was not entirely voluntary?
yingyingbaobao: but with time passing, the situations are changing
yingyingbaobao: i don’t think hongkong people are unwilling. in modern world, nobody can force people doing anything they want , if they don
yingyingbaobao: if they don’t want to , they should have had drastic conflicts
yingyingbaobao: anyway, i get almost all my information from our government, so perhaps i dont see the case in a whole-concerned way
ladude48bi: obviously those people who didn’t want to live under chines rule had the opportunity to leave, and quite a few did leave. with taiwan, however, it seems that the people there don’t want to come under chines control. Even though they are “brothers,“ they want to be good neighbors and friends, but live in their own house.....
yingyingbaobao: chinese people’s idea of coherence is very deep and strong
yingyingbaobao: i think the young generation of taiwan may have this idea, the case is somewhat like usa and england, after the usa has developed their own culture and values, there’s no bound to keep them together
ladude48bi: i think that this is an important point. in the west, we favor diversity over coherence, which has a compulsive nature to it.
ladude48bi: in the case of the u.s. and brittain it was a matter of home rule. the american colonies did not like the fact that decisions over their lives were made in london, and that they had virtually no say in the decision-making process.
yingyingbaobao: taiwan’s problem is not only a independence of itself, it has been some countries’ “base“ for a long time. they use it to try to ’control“china and divide china some day
yingyingbaobao: the critical point is taiwan is not china’s colony, and if china ’s divided into parts, it will be weaker than before
ladude48bi: i have some doubt about your point about taiwan’s intentions.... what is the evidence of such hostile intentions on the part of taiwan?
yingyingbaobao: i don’t think i have hostile intensions against taiwan, actually, i long for visiting it, i have some good friends from taiwan on internet, we are in the same club of a mainland movie star
ladude48bi: i think that we can agree that taiwan had good reasons to object to reunification during chairman Mao’s times......
yingyingbaobao:
, that is really a hard time
yingyingbaobao: the mainland china’s policy now is not to defeat them, but to cooperate and communicate more
ladude48bi: i would imagine so, and the fact that china survived those hard times points to the stength of its people
yingyingbaobao: yes, and about that time, it is not as simple as westerners view, it has many roots, mao’s blunder, feudal remnant
ladude48bi: i think that a chinese policy of cooperation and communication would be best. that way, friendship and mutual interests can be developed. however, so long as china also insists on reunification, i can understand why the taiwanese feel threatened by china. i would think that “one people, two systems and two countries“ would be a more acceptable policy.
yingyingbaobao: you see the present russian, they finally need some leader to give central control like tsar
yingyingbaobao: the problem is our policy is “one coutry, two system“ , the issue of sovereignty is important
yingyingbaobao: loose taiwan will be the beginning of china’s being splitted
ladude48bi: what is sovereignty?...... isn’t it just the subjugation of people by some group that claims the right to rule?.....
yingyingbaobao: i used to have practical training in a small company, we have 10 people, one from singapore, one usa, one norway and one from taiwan, we get along well and ignore the problem of politics but i feel he sees taiwan as a coutry
yingyingbaobao: sovereignty means chinese people should settle their own problems within their coutry, but not let other country’s to utilize it.
yingyingbaobao: and sovereignty is there is one china in this world, taiwan has been part of china for long time and it is a part
yingyingbaobao: anyway, i long for visiting there to see my friends and taste their food
yingyingbaobao: if taiwan is independent, many chinese people, i mean civilians, will be against it.
yingyingbaobao: no leader of china dear make that decision
yingyingbaobao: he will be the sinner of all chinese nation in many people’s idea
ladude48bi: ok, i too believe that people should rule themselves, and the taiwanese probably believe that too. are you saying that because of ethnic homogeneity, china and taiwan should be ruled together? although there is a strong correlation between ethnic populations, countries are not formed by ethnic composition. if we go down that path, we’ll end up with countries based on religion......
yingyingbaobao: it is 5 am in china now, and i have spent a night in this exciting chat, my father got up , i can’t stay long
yingyingbaobao: it is not only ethic
ladude48bi: i agree. i think that the chinese leadership is now trapped by its own policy. having advocated reunification for so long and so strongly, it is very hard for them to change their position.
yingyingbaobao: in the past, taiwan’s seprate with mainland is not in a normal way
yingyingbaobao: it is in a war , with some other countries strategy
ladude48bi: but past is past....... i still fail to see a rational need for reunification. it seems to be a policy based on emotions, and not on reason....
yingyingbaobao:( and very hard for we common people to accept it
ladude48bi: is it possible that the desire for reunification on the part of china is a part of some hegemonial aspirations, e.g. to grow even larger, so as to become a more dominant power in global affairs?
yingyingbaobao: i am afraid icant stay here chating long , you are a very nice friend, maybe we can keep in touch by email?
yingyingbaobao: i think china is struggling to survie
yingyingbaobao: but not to dominant
ladude48bi: ok..., gladly.... my e-mail is glaserd@pacbell.net
yingyingbaobao: we are not asking for a foreign country to become part of china, but the part we lost
ladude48bi: but china can survive without taiwan.... taiwan is not neccessary for china’s survival
yingyingbaobao: my email is ########
yingyingbaobao: i will try to find some information with this problem and answer you
yingyingbaobao:
ladude48bi: i thought your name was ying ying or bao bao..... is it nancy?
yingyingbaobao: yes, my nick name, i mean my parents and relatives call me yingying, in china usually little children will be called by nick names
yingyingbaobao: baobao is a word in chinese which means “lovely baby“
yingyingbaobao: :“>
yingyingbaobao: nancy is my english name
ladude48bi: i see..... very interesting..... i really enjoyed chatting with you, and i hope that we can continue our dialogue....
ladude48bi: my name is Dan
yingyingbaobao: :O, lovely name, in china there is a word with just the same pronouciation
yingyingbaobao: i have to go
ladude48bi: xie xie for talking to me....
yingyingbaobao: nice chatting with you
yingyingbaobao: bu yong xie (not at all)
yingyingbaobao: bye!
ladude48bi: ok.... i’ll let you go.... good night..... and i’m looking forward to talking with you soon....
yingyingbaobao:
yingyingbaobao: good morning to me!
yingyingbaobao: it is 5 am
ladude48bi: bye bye :“>
yingyingbaobao: we can first communicate by email
ladude48bi: sure..
＿＿（这是我发在其他论坛上的一个原创贴子，但反响让我心酸，可能也是访问两量的问题吧，看看天涯的朋友们有何高见）
在一个国际网站上的语音聊天室做了自我介绍后，一个芝加哥人和我搭话，他曾做过律师，但是不喜欢这个职业总是伴随种种纠纷，他的兴趣是国际政治，希望有机会在大学里教书。我觉得他会是一个好老师，因为他说话很清晰，有条理，温文尔雅，和我认识的其他美国人一样，尽管对中国有些误解，但保持着谦恭的态度，和好奇心。
我们从市场经济谈到台湾问题，中间语音出了故障，我们就用打字接着聊。虽然有很大分歧，但是我已不再像两年前刚开始上国外聊天室那样像个炮仗似的一点就着，为了捍卫心中的祖国荣誉，不惜把人家骂的“狗血喷头”，我希望能通过翔实的内容和理想的思考把我所了解的中国介绍给那些有着误解的人们，而不是通过盲目的愤怒来加深误会。这点所谓的“贡献”也许微不足道，但我还是很认真，而且，我也喜欢聊天。
那天和那个叫做“丹”的美国人聊过后，我的心里沉重了好久，我希望我能有足够的证据和富有感染力的理性的论述，能让他了解台湾问题对于我们意味着什么，但我发现自己的辩说太苍白了，也许你可以说，你不是学国际政治的，你可以原谅自己，但是我做不到。就像听到有些日本人说南京大屠杀是捏造的，说他们的侵略是为了帮助我们共存共荣，我发现自己除了愤怒的热血和握紧的拳头之外，脑子里对这段历史却是只记得大概。只有爱国的热情是不够的，应该去了解历史，分析思考，这是比抵制“洋货”更有尊严也更有力量的做法吧。
花了两个晚上， 我把我和丹的对话中关于台湾的一段粗略地翻译出来，放在这里，另外把打字聊天的全文附在其后，几天过去了，我仍没有给丹回信，因为我希望听到同学们的看法，我真的有些茫然，不知道应该怎样说服他，甚至说服自己，我在寻找理由，希望读到贴子的你，如果你也愿意以理性的思考和从小事做起的执著来爱我们的祖国，给我你的回答。
谢谢！
（以下是我们谈话中关于台湾的部分）
丹：既然我们谈到了有关政治的话题，我可以问你一个政治方面的问题吗？
我：可以啊，请吧。
我：我不介意的。
丹：谢谢。
丹：你提到了“台湾问题”。作为一个西方人，我很难理解中国所谓的台湾问题。如果允许，我很想听听你对“台湾问题”的看法。
我：大陆方面的观点是，台湾岛是属于中国的。
丹：但是，纵观历史，中国的版图已数次更改。
我：所以，我们认为，尽管许多西方国家将台湾视作独立国家，我们并不想分裂。（此句是接我自己的上一句话，因为聊天打字，有时会有时间差，造成句子错位，读时请多包涵-----翻译时注）
我：是的，我们还曾扩张到欧洲了呢。但这次不同了啊，因为两岸都是中国人，我们都深深地植根于中华历史的长河中。就像是你和你的兄弟，你们长久以来共同生活，而且将来也会携手并进，为什么要从此行同末路呢？并且，从政治角度考虑，是去台湾，对中国大陆是危险的。
丹：但是，在50年前的中国内战中，蒋介石的队伍实力，在台湾找到了避难所，建成了一个良好的社会，中国为什么不能接受这个事实呢? 此外，中国为自己再次统一的强烈欲望是不是付出了过大的代价？当今社会的主流是国家的分离和独立，据统计，在过去的50年中，独立国家的数目翻了一翻。
我：（接着自己的上一句―--翻译时注）（分裂台湾）也许是西藏分裂的开始，甚至中国的东北，那里曾是日本的殖民地。
我：首先，这些国家的独立并不能和台湾问题作类比，因为许多国家在沦为殖民地以前是独立的。
丹：也许当中国更加民主并且实行市场经济的时候，与台湾统一的可能性会增加的。如果我是台湾人，我会很担心在中国政府的统治下，我的生活质量会下降，就像现在一样。
我：其次（接我自己的上一句），台湾的繁荣有着客观的原因，国民党溃退到台湾时，几乎掠走了一切能拿的动的东西。（我也许可以查查数据）
我：你说的有道理，但是，这次的统一并不是简单的合并，就像香港那样，台湾可以保持生活水平和社会制度甚至军队。祖国的统一会给台湾人民带来幸福和财富的，但是，许多政客就要不能享受当国家首脑的良好感觉了。
我：在台湾，许多人是在1949年从大陆抛妻别子（背井离乡）来的。他们的家庭和家族都在那里，所以他们渴望统一。
丹：香港的例子很有趣……不过，香港的未来会怎样，我们还需等等看。我读到，在中国政府的统治下，香港很难保持自己的生活方式了。此外，对香港来说，不是因为和英国的合约到期了吗？他们的回归不是自愿的吧。
我：但是随着时间推移，情况也在变化。我并不觉得香港人的回归是不自愿的，在当今社会，没有人能强迫人民做不愿做的事。如果他们真的不愿意回归，那早就会发生激烈冲突了。
我：不管怎样，我所知道的都是政府提供的信息，也许我看问题并不全面。
丹：这样一点是清楚的，不愿意受中国统治的香港人可以离港，而且确实有一大批人离开了。对台湾而言，看来那里的人不愿意受中国政府统治。尽管是“亲兄弟”，他们愿意做邻居和好朋友，但是住在自己的房子里……
我：中国人“大一统”的观念是非常强的。
我：我想台湾的青年一代也许会有这样的想法，这个例子有点像当年的美国和英国，在美国人形成了自己的文化和价值观念时，就没有什么能维系他们和英国的殖民关系了。
丹：我认为这是重要的一点。在西方，我们视“多样化”重于“大一统”，因为这是自然力的驱使。
丹：在美英的例子中，问题在于对殖民地的管理权上，美国不喜欢让伦敦去做影响他们的生活的决定。而且他们在决议过程中没有发言权。
我：台湾的问题并不只是是否让这一个岛屿独立的问题。很长时间以来它是某些国家的“基地”这些国家想要以次来“控制”中国，然后再分裂她。
我：、关键问题是，台湾并不是中国的殖民地，而且，如果中国被分裂了，力量就会被削弱。
丹：我对你说的台湾的企图……有些疑惑，有什么证据能说明台湾有这些敌对意图呢？
我：（以下的回答可能是我理解错了丹的意思后，驴唇不对马嘴的答复，见笑了--------翻译时注）
我对台湾并没有敌意，事实上，我很想去那里玩儿，我有一些台湾网友，我们都是一个大陆的电影明星的影迷网站的会员。
丹：我想我们都同意，在毛泽东时代（我理解指文革时期----翻译时注），台湾太有理由反对统一了。
我：那个时代确实不好过。
我：中国大陆的政策并不是要打败台湾，而是增加合作和沟通。
丹：（接我的上上句话）可以想象那时的情景，而且，事实上是，中国度过那段艰难时代靠的是人民的力量。
我：没错，但是关于那个时代，并不是想西方人想象的那样简单，文革的发生有许多根源，毛主席犯的错误，中国的封建残余等等。
丹：我觉得中国政府采取沟通与合作的政策是最好不过的了。这样，可以发展友好关系和互惠互利，可是，看到中国又坚持合并，我能理解为什么台湾人感到大陆的威胁了。我觉得“一个民族，两套制度，两个国家”应该更容易接受。
我：你知道现在的俄罗斯，他们到底还是要一个领导人给予有些类似沙皇的集权领导。
我：（接丹的上面的问题）问题是，我们的政策是“一个国家，两种制度”，主权问题不容忽视。
我：失去台湾将是祖国分裂的开始。
丹：什么是主权？……难道不是一小群号称有权统治权的人对人民的征服吗？
我：我曾经在一个小公司实习，共十个员工，一个来自新加坡，一个来自美国，一个挪威人，还有一个来自台湾，我们相处得很愉快，回避着那些政治问题，但是我感觉到，在他眼里，台湾是个国家。
我：（回答丹刚才说的主权问题）主权的意思就是中国人在自己的国家里管理自己的事，不被其他国家所利用。
我：主权还是世界上只有一个中国，台湾长久以来就是中国的一部分现在还是。
我：不管怎么说，我很希望去那里看看我的朋友，尝尝那的美食。
我：如果台湾独立了，很多中国人，我是说平民，都会反对的。
我：没有哪一个国家领导人敢做出这样的决定，大家会认为，他是中华民族的罪人。
丹：好的，我也相信人民应该自治，台湾人大概也这么想。你是不是说，为了保持种族的同质性，中国和台湾就应该被一起统治？尽管同种人口间联系紧密，但国家并不是单一种族的构成，如果那样的话，最后我们的国家要按照宗教信仰来划分了……
我：现在在中国已经是凌晨5点了，这一夜我聊得很开心，我爸爸起床了，我也快该下了。
我：这并不单单是种族问题。
丹：我也同意。我觉得中国的领导人陷入了自己的既定政策里无法脱身，因为他们倡导两岸统一长久以来都是那么坚定，想要改变立场是很难的。
我：当时的台湾也不是在一种正常的情况下分出去的。那是因为战争，和一些别的国家的阴谋。
丹：但过去毕竟是过去……我还是找不出提倡统一的合理性。这个政策好像立足于情感而非理智……
我：（接丹的“我也同意”一句）对我们平民来说，改变立场同样很难。
丹：有没有这种可能，两岸统一对于中国来说一部分是他的支配欲望的造成的。比如说，扩张领土，好称霸世界？
我：我恐怕很快就得下线了，你是个很邦的朋友，我们可以通过Email保持联系？
我：我觉得中国只是在求生存，而不是称霸。
丹：好吧……很乐意……我的邮箱地址是……
我：我们并不是在强迫外国并入中国，我们是在收复失地。
丹：但是，中国没有台湾也能够生存的……台湾对于中国的生存并不是必须。
我：我的地址是……
我：我会再找些这方面的信息，来回答你。
（后面就是一些寒暄，丹问了我的名字，也告诉我了他的名字，他向我道了晚安，其实应该是早安了。）
（以下是我们的英文原文，你可以掠过前面讨论经济的部分，后面台湾问题的那段话之前，我做了标记，yingyingbaobao是我在那里的网名，另一个就是丹）
ladude48bi: are you still there?......
yingyingbaobao: hi
yingyingbaobao: :“>
yingyingbaobao:
(yingyingbaobao: i can
yingyingbaobao: i can
yingyingbaobao: i can’t hear you clearly
yingyingbaobao:
yingyingbaobao: the voice is not continious
yingyingbaobao: :-/
yingyingbaobao: can you try to speak again
yingyingbaobao: let me see if it is ok now?
yingyingbaobao: :-/
ladude48bi: maybe we need to type until the connection gets better
yingyingbaobao:
no problemladude48bi: ok...., even though i really like hearing your voice....
yingyingbaobao: i hope the man who speaks in english listenning test can talk as clearly as you
ladude48bi: but, anyway, i agree with what you said that the chinese economy needs to take the condition of the country into account
ladude48bi: lol..... i don’t think that you’ll have any problem with the english listening test...
yingyingbaobao: in this so called economy reform, the leaders emphasize on that“ we are going on a chinese featured way of socialism“
yingyingbaobao: but many people see it as the “capitalism“, we think china is learning from usa in many aspects
yingyingbaobao: people think we only make some small adjustment
ladude48bi: american “socialism“ is based on the theory that a rising tide lifts all boats
yingyingbaobao: :-/
yingyingbaobao: does it mean all the people work together and get the result equally?
ladude48bi: when the water level rises, every boat on the water rises too......, i.e. when the economy prospers, then everyone prospers...... unfortunately, however, not everyone always prospers to the same extent
yingyingbaobao: so some of them won’t work hard, because this system will make sure of their living?
ladude48bi: not exactly, the system is there to allow everyone to make a living, but it is up to the individual to achieve success
yingyingbaobao: yes, Deng Xiaoping, a famous chinese politician has a saying“ let some people become rich first“ , it is a new idea, because in the past ,we think people should share everything in socialist country
yingyingbaobao: maybe you mean the communism
yingyingbaobao: but not the socialism?
ladude48bi: in the U.S. the emphasis is on giving everyone the opportunity to succeed, and whether they succeed or not is up to them.....
yingyingbaobao: in communism, people all work hard and get what they need
yingyingbaobao:
,yes yingyingbaobao: we are familiar with this, that ’s why we call usa a land of opportunity
yingyingbaobao: but when we talk about socialism, the emphasis is usually on the system of dividing the fruits
ladude48bi: communism, as i understand it, means that collective effort provides collective rewards (usually in the setting of a planned economy). As such, it seems to be against human nature, which prefers individual rewards for individual efforts.
yingyingbaobao: the theory is based on the assume that the human civilization is developed to a certain degree that everyone does his best and creat a lot of productions so everyone can get what they want then
yingyingbaobao: that’s why it seems to far from the reality
yingyingbaobao: it has its base that we have developed our sicience and technology to that degree and people are civilized they can work willingly and effeciently
ladude48bi: socialism, on the other hand, tries to minimize the gap between the rich and the poor, and is protective of disadvantaged elements of society. Since this usually requires governmental intervention in the operation of the markets, it has a tendency to inhibit the growth and development of markets. Also, taking care of the disadvantaged costs money, and therefore socialism is often a heavy burden on socialistic economies.
yingyingbaobao: the idea of socialism can simply be said as“ everybody tries his best , and the productions will be divided according to their work,“ it is not very far from the reality.
yingyingbaobao: yes
yingyingbaobao: i agree
yingyingbaobao: but in this big country, the gap between deferent areas is large,
ladude48bi: the problem i have with socialism is that i don’t believe that it motivates people enough. the best motivation is when people get to keep what they earn, and their earnings are in direct proportion to their efforts.
yingyingbaobao: we can’t leave all the people to fight for their living, the central gorvenment need something like making up the gap.
yingyingbaobao: yes, you get it!
yingyingbaobao: that’s why we began the reform in 1978
yingyingbaobao: to change the planned economy into market one,
yingyingbaobao: and at the same time
yingyingbaobao: the leaders emphasize on it is not “capitlaism“, because it gives people the impression that we are giving up socialism.
yingyingbaobao: in the past , people always relate planned economy to socialism and vice versa
yingyingbaobao:
, i think you have got the main point of china’s reform and its problemsladude48bi: i think that we agree, in principle, but we may differ to the extent that the government should make up the gap. When people know that the government will make up the gap, they have less incentive to work hard (human nature....); on the other hand, making up the gap costs a lot of money which depresses the growth of markets. Here, we tend to see the government’s role to be more the maintenance of the infrastructure that markets need to function - laws, roads, school, order, etc......., and we try to keep the government’s role (and, hence, its cost) to the absolute minimum required.
yingyingbaobao: yes, i agree, but a free market is not workable in china now.
ladude48bi: why not?
yingyingbaobao: we don’t have a complete and healthy system to keep the society in the order
yingyingbaobao: so the plan is needed
yingyingbaobao: and if you don’t help some undeveloped part,
yingyingbaobao: it is not good to maintan a solid china
yingyingbaobao: remember when russian first change into a free market?
yingyingbaobao: it is a mass
ladude48bi: what if the chinese government were to engage on large-scale rural development? that would create jobs, and then people would spend the money they earn to create more jobs, etc....., and, in addition, the rural development would create the infrastructure for future economic development in those areas.
yingyingbaobao: although it has almost overcome it, that hard period really bring a lot of pains to common people, so we prefer a amiable way
yingyingbaobao: right, there is a hot topic in china in these years is “ western explore strategy“
yingyingbaobao: we are trying to develop the western part of china,
yingyingbaobao: to change their poor conditions and stimulate china’s economy
yingyingbaobao: china
yingyingbaobao: mainland china has too much undeveloped areas, otherwise, we must be more prosperous than taiwan.
ladude48bi: russia’s first experiment with market economy was a disaster, because they sold government assets to political favorites......, but china need not repeat russia’s early mistakes
yingyingbaobao: of course, but it is not only that, the reform as a “coma“ is a disaster to people
ladude48bi: we say that you have to break eggs in order to make an omlette....., and, perhaps, a temporary “disaster“ for some people is necessary for long-term reform. By beeing overly concerned about temporary difficulties, long term change and improvement may be inhibited....
yingyingbaobao:
but russian’s example is a disaster to too many people, china’s present economic reform has alse brought pains to some people who are used to get equal pay without work as hard as others. this kind of pain is necessary and not harmful, but to bring china to a mass is not workableyingyingbaobao: we need peaceful and solid conditions to live and to keep china a whole one
ladude48bi: i’m not sure about the importance of keeping china as a whole...... that implies centralized government. yet, with such vast regional disparities as there are in china, a more decentralized government may be more advantageous. in a decentralized government, each region could implement policies that are best for its particular situation.
yingyingbaobao: i don’t mean we should emphasize on centralment, but china need a solid inner enviroment, we have the problems of taiwan or even tibet, if the country has drastic change and upset, china may lost its land
ladude48bi: i understand what you’re saying. interestingly, it demonstrates the connection between politics and the economy..... i.e. the economic policy of a country is a result of political considerations........
yingyingbaobao: yes, the economy is the base of politics
yingyingbaobao: chinese people see the “solid conditions“ very important
ladude48bi: no, it is the other way around: politics is the basis of economic policy....
yingyingbaobao: if the coutry is upset , the civilians will suffer first
ladude48bi: and the politicians may loose their jobs too...
yingyingbaobao: but economy is objective, so policy should respect the principle of economy
yingyingbaobao: yes
yingyingbaobao: but i believe they are not only doing this for their job,
ladude48bi: i agree
ladude48bi: but the interests of politicians are not always objective...
yingyingbaobao: they are sons of civilians and don’t want people to suffer, china has suffered a lot in recent hundreds of years
yingyingbaobao: i agree
(以下为有关台湾问题的谈话）
ladude48bi: having reached the issue of politics in our discussion, can i ask you a political question?
yingyingbaobao: go ahead, please
yingyingbaobao: i don’t mind
ladude48bi: thank you.
ladude48bi: you mentioned “the problem of taiwan.“ As a westener, i have a difficult time understanding what is china’s problem with taiwan. I would be interested to hear your pint of view on “the problem of taiwan.“
ladude48bi: err: point of view
yingyingbaobao: in mainland china’s idea, the island taiwan is part of china
ladude48bi: but, throughout history, china’s borders have changed many times
yingyingbaobao: so in our point, although many foreign countris see it as a individual country, we dont want to seperate
yingyingbaobao: yes, we have reached europe some time
yingyingbaobao: but this time is deferent
yingyingbaobao: both sides are chinese
yingyingbaobao: and we are deep rooted into the long history,
yingyingbaobao: just like your relation with your brother
yingyingbaobao: you have spent ages together and you can cooperate well in future, why should they become strangers?
yingyingbaobao: and consider in politic aspect
yingyingbaobao: to loose taiwan is dangerous for mainland china
ladude48bi: but, 50 years ago, there was a civil war, and Chan Kay Check’s forces lost, and found refuge in taiwan, where they developed a pretty good society. why cannot china accept this fact? and isn’t china paying too high of a price for its desire to reunite? the tendency in the world today is towards breaking up countries, as is evidenced by the fact that, in the last 50 years, the number of independent countries has doubled.
yingyingbaobao: and it may be the beginning of tibet, even the northeast of china, this part has once become the colony of japan.
yingyingbaobao: first, the independency of those countries are not like the case here, many of them were independent countries before they become colony
ladude48bi: maybe china’s chances of reuniting with taiwan will improve when china is more democratic and has a market economy. if i were taiwanese, i’d be very apprehensive of loosing my standard of living under chines control, as it presently exists.
yingyingbaobao: second, taiwan’s rich has many objective reasons, they brough almost all the worth that they can carry from mainland china to taiwan,(i can find you figures about it
yingyingbaobao: yes, what you said is reasonabe, but the renuion is not a simple one , it is like the case in hongkong , they can keep their living standards and social systems even the army
yingyingbaobao: the reunion will bring happieness and wealth to taiwanese, but the politicians there will loose their good feeling being a “coutry“’s leader
yingyingbaobao: in taiwan, many people left from mainland china in 1949 , they have their family(not only wife and children but a kindred) in mainland.they are looking forward to the reunion
ladude48bi: the analogy to hong kong is interesting....., but we still need to wait and see how well hong kong do in the future....... from what i’ve read, it is difficult for hong kong to keep its way of life under chinese control. Besides, in the hong kong case, wasn’t there a british lease that expired, so that the return to china was not entirely voluntary?
yingyingbaobao: but with time passing, the situations are changing
yingyingbaobao: i don’t think hongkong people are unwilling. in modern world, nobody can force people doing anything they want , if they don
yingyingbaobao: if they don’t want to , they should have had drastic conflicts
yingyingbaobao: anyway, i get almost all my information from our government, so perhaps i dont see the case in a whole-concerned way
ladude48bi: obviously those people who didn’t want to live under chines rule had the opportunity to leave, and quite a few did leave. with taiwan, however, it seems that the people there don’t want to come under chines control. Even though they are “brothers,“ they want to be good neighbors and friends, but live in their own house.....
yingyingbaobao: chinese people’s idea of coherence is very deep and strong
yingyingbaobao: i think the young generation of taiwan may have this idea, the case is somewhat like usa and england, after the usa has developed their own culture and values, there’s no bound to keep them together
ladude48bi: i think that this is an important point. in the west, we favor diversity over coherence, which has a compulsive nature to it.
ladude48bi: in the case of the u.s. and brittain it was a matter of home rule. the american colonies did not like the fact that decisions over their lives were made in london, and that they had virtually no say in the decision-making process.
yingyingbaobao: taiwan’s problem is not only a independence of itself, it has been some countries’ “base“ for a long time. they use it to try to ’control“china and divide china some day
yingyingbaobao: the critical point is taiwan is not china’s colony, and if china ’s divided into parts, it will be weaker than before
ladude48bi: i have some doubt about your point about taiwan’s intentions.... what is the evidence of such hostile intentions on the part of taiwan?
yingyingbaobao: i don’t think i have hostile intensions against taiwan, actually, i long for visiting it, i have some good friends from taiwan on internet, we are in the same club of a mainland movie star
ladude48bi: i think that we can agree that taiwan had good reasons to object to reunification during chairman Mao’s times......
yingyingbaobao:
, that is really a hard timeyingyingbaobao: the mainland china’s policy now is not to defeat them, but to cooperate and communicate more
ladude48bi: i would imagine so, and the fact that china survived those hard times points to the stength of its people
yingyingbaobao: yes, and about that time, it is not as simple as westerners view, it has many roots, mao’s blunder, feudal remnant
ladude48bi: i think that a chinese policy of cooperation and communication would be best. that way, friendship and mutual interests can be developed. however, so long as china also insists on reunification, i can understand why the taiwanese feel threatened by china. i would think that “one people, two systems and two countries“ would be a more acceptable policy.
yingyingbaobao: you see the present russian, they finally need some leader to give central control like tsar
yingyingbaobao:
the problem is our policy is “one coutry, two system“ , the issue of sovereignty is importantyingyingbaobao: loose taiwan will be the beginning of china’s being splitted
ladude48bi: what is sovereignty?...... isn’t it just the subjugation of people by some group that claims the right to rule?.....
yingyingbaobao: i used to have practical training in a small company, we have 10 people, one from singapore, one usa, one norway and one from taiwan, we get along well and ignore the problem of politics but i feel he sees taiwan as a coutry
yingyingbaobao: sovereignty means chinese people should settle their own problems within their coutry, but not let other country’s to utilize it.
yingyingbaobao: and sovereignty is there is one china in this world, taiwan has been part of china for long time and it is a part
yingyingbaobao:
anyway, i long for visiting there to see my friends and taste their foodyingyingbaobao: if taiwan is independent, many chinese people, i mean civilians, will be against it.
yingyingbaobao: no leader of china dear make that decision
yingyingbaobao: he will be the sinner of all chinese nation in many people’s idea
ladude48bi: ok, i too believe that people should rule themselves, and the taiwanese probably believe that too. are you saying that because of ethnic homogeneity, china and taiwan should be ruled together? although there is a strong correlation between ethnic populations, countries are not formed by ethnic composition. if we go down that path, we’ll end up with countries based on religion......
yingyingbaobao: it is 5 am in china now, and i have spent a night in this exciting chat, my father got up , i can’t stay long
yingyingbaobao: it is not only ethic
ladude48bi: i agree. i think that the chinese leadership is now trapped by its own policy. having advocated reunification for so long and so strongly, it is very hard for them to change their position.
yingyingbaobao: in the past, taiwan’s seprate with mainland is not in a normal way
yingyingbaobao: it is in a war , with some other countries strategy
ladude48bi: but past is past....... i still fail to see a rational need for reunification. it seems to be a policy based on emotions, and not on reason....
yingyingbaobao:
( and very hard for we common people to accept itladude48bi: is it possible that the desire for reunification on the part of china is a part of some hegemonial aspirations, e.g. to grow even larger, so as to become a more dominant power in global affairs?
yingyingbaobao: i am afraid icant stay here chating long , you are a very nice friend, maybe we can keep in touch by email?
yingyingbaobao: i think china is struggling to survie
yingyingbaobao: but not to dominant
ladude48bi: ok..., gladly.... my e-mail is glaserd@pacbell.net
yingyingbaobao: we are not asking for a foreign country to become part of china, but the part we lost
ladude48bi: but china can survive without taiwan.... taiwan is not neccessary for china’s survival
yingyingbaobao: my email is ########
yingyingbaobao: i will try to find some information with this problem and answer you
yingyingbaobao:
ladude48bi: i thought your name was ying ying or bao bao..... is it nancy?
yingyingbaobao: yes, my nick name, i mean my parents and relatives call me yingying, in china usually little children will be called by nick names
yingyingbaobao: baobao is a word in chinese which means “lovely baby“
yingyingbaobao: :“>
yingyingbaobao: nancy is my english name
ladude48bi: i see..... very interesting..... i really enjoyed chatting with you, and i hope that we can continue our dialogue....
ladude48bi: my name is Dan
yingyingbaobao: :O, lovely name, in china there is a word with just the same pronouciation
yingyingbaobao: i have to go
ladude48bi: xie xie for talking to me....
yingyingbaobao: nice chatting with you
yingyingbaobao:
bu yong xie (not at all)yingyingbaobao:
bye!ladude48bi: ok.... i’ll let you go.... good night..... and i’m looking forward to talking with you soon....
yingyingbaobao:
yingyingbaobao: good morning to me!
yingyingbaobao: it is 5 am
ladude48bi: bye bye :“>
yingyingbaobao: we can first communicate by email
ladude48bi: sure..
