都是mRNA,moderna给的药剂量很高。保护力应该比较好。pFizer给的量比较低。但是,对青少年,依然过高。

Moderna study suggests half doses offer strong immune response, but experts caution against changing approach​

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'Significant' immune response from both full and half doses, company's team says​


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Lauren Pelley · CBC News · Posted: Feb 17, 2021 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: February 17

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Medical worker Robert Gilbertson loads a syringe with the Moderna Covid-19 vaccine to be administered by nurses at a vaccination site in Los Angeles on Tuesday. During a recent study, researchers determined that half the amount of Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine dose was capable of triggering a 'significant' immune response. (Apu Gomes/AFP/Getty Images)
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There's now early evidence showing Moderna's coronavirus vaccine may elicit a strong immune response even through half doses, prompting hope that further research could back up the results and eventually allow countries like Canada to stretch out vaccine supplies.
The company's peer-reviewed findings, based on a Phase 2 trial, were published online by the journal Vaccine last week.
The study looked at the mRNA vaccine's "immunogenicity" — its ability to provoke an immune response — through both anti-virus, spike-binding antibody levels and neutralizing antibodies, which help to block reinfection.
Researchers determined within a two-dose regimen that both the current amount of vaccine dose and half that amount being given each time were capable of "significant" immune responses.
Those findings are welcome news, though not yet worth changing dosing approaches, said Dr. Zain Chagla, an infectious disease specialist and associate professor at McMaster University in Hamilton.
"But it does bring up the urgent need to do a Phase 3-type clinical trial of full dose versus half dose and see what happens," he said.
"The implications, obviously, are you all of a sudden double your vaccine supply overnight if this seems to work out."

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During a recent study, researchers determined that half the amount of Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine dose was capable of triggering a 'significant' immune response. (Jean-Francois Badias/The Associated Press)

Immune response 'increased substantially'​

The Moderna vaccine is one of two options currently approved and being used in Canada to combat the spread of COVID-19, with more than 40 million doses ordered by the federal government.
Based on full clinical trial results, the current approach requires two doses of the vaccine, spaced 28 days apart.
The company's recently released findings looked at both a full dose of 100 micrograms and a half dose of 50 micrograms, given as two doses in a randomized, observer-blind, placebo-controlled trial.
At eight different U.S. sites, a total of 600 participants were divided into age cohorts and randomly assigned at a 1:1:1 ratio to receive either the two full doses, two half doses, or two placebo doses.
By 28 days after the first shot, anti-virus spike-binding antibody levels and neutralizing antibodies were higher among people who'd been given the full dose compared to the half dose.
But that difference was "less apparent" after participants received both rounds, Moderna's research team found.
Both binding antibodies and neutralizing antibodies "increased substantially" by the two-week mark after participants were fully vaccinated and remained elevated through day 57, the researchers wrote.

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Boxes containing the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine are prepared to be shipped at a distribution centre in Olive Branch, Miss., in late December. (Paul Sancya/Reuters)

Questions over duration of protection, variants​

Outside experts who spoke to CBC News all stressed the need for future research before changing Canada's dosing approach, given the short two-month time period and small, homogeneous group studied by Moderna.
Chagla also said there's a clear need to understand longer-term immunity and how other elements of the immune system — such as T-cells, which target specific bodily invaders — might be affected as well.
"The point nobody can answer for you is how long you will have protection," said Horacio Bach, an adjunct professor in the division of infectious diseases at the University of British Columbia's faculty of medicine.
"Nobody knows. Nobody can tell you. There are no studies; that's the reason it's a global emergency."
Dr. Noni MacDonald, a researcher focused on vaccine safety who is also a professor at Dalhousie University's department of pediatrics in Halifax, stressed that while Moderna's study did show similar immunogenicity with two different concentrations of the vaccine, it was also based on "old data."
The research was conducted between late May and early July 2020 — long before the clear rise of multiple virus variants, which may be more transmissible or capable of evading the body's immune response.
If the findings hold up against emerging variants, it could mean countries like Canada could one day "stretch what we have" when it comes to Moderna shipments, MacDonald said in an email exchange with CBC News.
But right now, that's not yet a possibility. Already the company says its vaccine may be less effective against the B1351 variant, requiring it to develop an alternative version for booster shots.

VARIANT.jpg


What we know about COVID-19 variants so far​

5 months ago
4:17
Immunologist and microbiologist Nikhil Thomas says it's important to 'suppress the spread of these variants,' as the coronavirus variant first identified in the U.K. is replicating faster and transmitting 'at a higher frequency.' 4:17

U.S. officials discussed half-dosing​

Despite limited data on the benefits of using half-doses, particularly against emerging variants, there has been discussion south of the border over taking that approach, with the U.S. government also helping fund Moderna's most recently-published research.
In January, Moncef Slaoui, then-chief adviser of the former U.S. president Donald Trump administration's vaccine effort — one dubbed Operation Warp Speed — said officials were considering giving half-doses of the Moderna vaccine to American adults under the age of 55.
The same month, the U.S. Food & Drug Administration released a statement shooting that idea down, saying any changes to dosing or schedules of approved vaccines would be "premature and not rooted solidly in the available evidence."
On this side of the border, Health Canada officials told CBC News the agency has not received an application from Moderna to amend its vaccine authorization, but would "thoroughly review" one if it was submitted.

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How the other vaccines in line for Canada's approval compare​

5 months ago
2:03
Canada has other vaccines in line for approval -- how they compare to the ones already being rolled out and how COVID-19 variants are a complicating factor. 2:03

Dosing strategies have long-term impact​

While Bach suspects full clinical trials might yield a similar result to Moderna's Phase 2 trial, he said it isn't clear if the manufacturer would even allow countries to stretch their supplies.
He also agreed keeping the current guidelines in place is the ideal approach for the time being, rather than risking lives by adopting a dosing strategy that needs more evidence.
"We don't know where we are going," Bach said. "You can put people in danger."
Still, there's some potential in Moderna's early results, according to Chagla.
Knowing the adequate dosing strategy will matter down the line while developing those boosters for variants, he said. And the early evidence points to the potential for increasing vaccine supply to much of the developing world, where shots remain in short supply.
"The answer will have implicating effects for years, not just the vaccine roll-out over the next few months," Chagla said.
 
Each dose of Pfizer’s contains 30 micrograms of vaccine. Moderna went with a much larger dose of vaccine, 100 micrograms. It means the company is using a little more than three times as much vaccine per person as Pfizer is
 
想占便宜的,想多获得免疫潜力的,不妨二针打M,三倍于P,多受苦,也多获取、
 
还是顺其自然好,轮到那个打那个。

二针 M 并没有产生三倍于二针 P 的抗体。
当然,你躺平,堪比生孩,换取到抗疫心里优势,还是值的。
 
我认为,三倍计量不会再普通人身体产生三倍抗体。

但是会对普通人的免疫记忆产生更强烈的印象。

也就是说,抗体量并不会增高。但是记忆更加有效。

什么意思?

免疫时间更长,遇到后期病毒,记忆激活抗体的速度和量都应该更高。
 
胡扯!我为打疫苗的事专门约了儿科医生咨询,除非有特殊疾病,否则没什么问题。
就得看儿科医生专业水平

小贵子这个文科生说的是有道理的,他是勤劳小蜜蜂
 
报告一下。两针M,痛不欲生了28小时。最后吃药两片泰诺,睡了一觉,今天早晨应该是恢复正常了。

将来还要打第三针?

妈呀
 
mRNA的药理过程,

疫苗mRNA进入人体,刺激人体产生大量的 SPIKE,人体免疫针对SPIKE进行防御

疫苗过多,mRNA过多,导致,人体产生的SPIKE量过多,

人体免疫是有极限的 (抗体浓度有上限)

当免疫能力无论如何都无法追上spike增长速度、spike就会大量淤积。

spike不仅仅会和ACE2反应,也会与血管心脏的特异受体结合。


1. 青少年的这种受体特别多。一旦spike淤积,就会出现心脏问题。
2. 免疫缺陷的人,产生抗体的能力不足,哪怕疫苗剂量不高,也会出现spike淤积。不能被有效中和。因此,也会在出现心脏炎症。
3. 疫苗直接注入血管,导致心脏区域SPIKE浓度异常高。而无法被抗体及时中和。产生心肌炎。


这个原理图,如果是合理的。

那么,就说明

目前主流的mRNA疫苗问题,其实就是

剂量问题

解决方法很简单,针对特定人群优化剂量。
 
最后编辑:
小贵子是勤劳小蜜蜂,不过文科生的逻辑很拧巴
效果要根据数据,moderna的数据说明保护效果很一般。
用了的高剂量的药,达到一般的效果,这对使用者肯定是不利的。
是我没逻辑吗?

哈哈

人体产生抗体浓度是有上限的。moderna表征效果与Pfize相同就是因为,两者都成功将免疫力全部释放出来了。
这只是人体能够做到的最佳防疫能力的体现。

总会有5%的人对疫苗没有反应。无论什么疫苗,无论什么dose


高dose坏处是,心肌炎。

好处是,总归对人体的刺激更强,因此免疫记忆更强。对免疫力的维持,和在激活后的免疫强度,是有好处的。
 
最后编辑:
新加坡卫生部7月5日公布,一名16岁少年接种第一剂BNT-辉瑞mRNA新冠疫苗6天后,在健身房举重不久心脏骤停,目前在国立大学医院加护病房救治,情况危急。卫生部和国大医院正在调查以确定病情是否与疫苗或急性严重心肌炎(acute severe myocarditis)有关。
新加坡新冠疫苗专家团和卫生科学局建议所有公众,尤其是青少年和30岁以下的年轻男性,不论接种第一剂或第二剂疫苗,都应避免在接种后的一个星期内进行剧烈活动。专家团也提醒,接种后若感到胸口疼痛、呼吸急促或心跳异常,应尽快求医。
专家团强调,与新冠疫苗相关的心肌炎病例,大多症状轻微并能顺利康复,但心肌炎有可能因剧烈活动影响心脏而恶化。经广泛审议,专家团认为接种mRNA疫苗的保护作用持续大于接种风险,因此仍推荐符合资格的公众接种,包括青少年。


新加坡卫生科学局昨天发表的第三份冠病疫苗安全监测结果报告,截至6月30日,共有12人在接种信使核糖核酸(mRNA)新冠疫苗后出现心肌炎或心包炎(pericarditis)。其中7人是30岁以下男性,比该年龄层的预期发病率要高。

美国密歇根州萨吉诺县一名13岁少年雅各布·克莱尼克,6月13日接种了第二剂BNT-辉瑞mRNA新冠疫苗,6月16日在睡梦中猝死。家人指少年生前身体检查完全健康,接种第二剂新冠疫苗后出现发烧、疲倦、胃痛等副作用。根据法医的初步解剖结果显示,该死者心脏肿大且被液体包裹,疑似心肌炎或心包炎。
 
早在年初就已经证实

Moderna study suggests half doses offer strong immune response, but experts caution against changing approach​

莫得那实际上只需要半剂,就可以达到强免疫

所以,以此为依据,我强烈建议岁数不太大的,第二针,尽量辉瑞。辉瑞的剂量足够了。没必要用到moderna的高剂量。
我以前看到过报道,moderna技术没有辉瑞好,所以加大了剂量,因此产量是辉瑞的1/4,如果剂量一样,产量应该跟辉瑞差不多。这些剂量都是根据一期临床实验抗体浓度和副作用决定的,当然一期没有做儿童
 
想占便宜的,想多获得免疫潜力的,不妨二针打M,三倍于P,多受苦,也多获取、
想占便宜的,应该两针都打莫得那,量大酸爽!
 
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