Are Canadians getting a good deal with universal health care?

最初由 Xiaomimi 发布


You want a two-tiers system, is that correct ? In a two-tier system, 10% of those wealthy people like you may get a faster service, but rest 90% will face an even longer wait.

Did you care about the Canadian health system ? No, you want to be a queue-jumper. You want your money to buy you a better chance of survival than others around you. You want your money to make you "different", which most Canadian considered morally criminal and rightly rejected.

You are wrong. If you are very rich, like you said before, you can go to US now, don't have to wait here. But we want a two tier system in Canada, so that more middle class can afford.

Why when you talk about two tier system, you would think of queue jumper. Two tier system could help both as it will reduce the waiting time for the public system too. We are not talking about rich people here we are talking middle class people. I am not that rich as you can imagine but I just want a choice. Even I don't have money, I want to borrow money if I can get fast treatment and be healthy again.

Why should I go to US now? I paid tax here and I want to be treated here ASAP. That's my answer to you. Two tier system could also bring the efficiency to both the public system and private one. Don't you know how much waste here in our public system? I dont see why living in a hospital without major treatment will cost over 1,000 dollar per day, five times more than most luxury hotel.

Don't be an idiot and always stick to an ideal system nobody can afford. This system is built in 60's when Canada has lots of surplus and can afford it. Now the situation changes. We don't have to always compare with US system when talking about medical reform. There are many systems in the world we can learn, we can even learn from China as in there you can go to the hospital and pay user fee and see the specialists right away, unlike here you have to get a refer from your family doctor and wait for months to get an appointment.

You can make a calculation and see which one cost more, waiting for long time for treatment and spend more money when your sickness get worse or even die, or get a fast treatment with less money when your sickness is easy to cure.
 
Can't agree more!!!

最初由 lifeisfun 发布


You are wrong. If you are very rich, like you said before, you can go to US now, don't have to wait here. But we want a two tier system in Canada, so that more middle class can afford.

Why when you talk about two tier system, you would think of queue jumper. Two tier system could help both as it will reduce the waiting time for the public system too. We are not talking about rich people here we are talking middle class people. I am not that rich as you can imagine but I just want a choice. Even I don't have money, I want to borrow money if I can get fast treatment and be healthy again.

Why should I go to US now? I paid tax here and I want to be treated here ASAP. That's my answer to you. Two tier system could also bring the efficiency to both the public system and private one. Don't you know how much waste here in our public system? I dont see why living in a hospital without major treatment will cost over 1,000 dollar per day, five times more than most luxury hotel.

Don't be an idiot and always stick to an ideal system nobody can afford. This system is built in 60's when Canada has lots of surplus and can afford it. Now the situation changes. We don't have to always compare with US system when talking about medical reform. There are many systems in the world we can learn, we can even learn from China as in there you can go to the hospital and pay user fee and see the specialists right away, unlike here you have to get a refer from your family doctor and wait for months to get an appointment.

You can make a calculation and see which one cost more, waiting for long time for treatment and spend more money when your sickness get worse or even die, or get a fast treatment with less money when your sickness is easy to cure.
 
Also bare in mind that there AREN'T only 2 systems in the world: the Canadian system and the US system. The UK system is 2-tiered, and it's proven to work well.

For a small fee, which is probably covered by insurance anyway, you can get faster, specialized services while maintaining a comprehensive free health care system for everyone. What's wrong with that?
 
Well, as a matter of fact, our system now is not really a 1-tier system. There is additional health insurance available for you to purchase and if needed that can be used to cover the cost to get treatment in US.

A small step toward a 2 tier system is the only way to solve our problem if we don't want to pay 70% tax.
 
最初由 渐渐 发布
Also bare in mind that there AREN'T only 2 systems in the world: the Canadian system and the US system. The UK system is 2-tiered, and it's proven to work well.

For a small fee, which is probably covered by insurance anyway, you can get faster, specialized services while maintaining a comprehensive free health care system for everyone. What's wrong with that?

Funny you mentioned UK. UK has even longer waiting time for vast majority of its citizen partly because its two tier system takeing away medical resources from the public system.

"a small fee, which is probably covered by insurance": Oh, really ?are those insurance company private for profit organization, or charity organization ? And how can they only charge you a "small fee", money grows on trees ? Just check your car insurance bill in Ontario lately to know the true cost of a private for-profit insurance system.

Now something serious, although I doubt you and people upstair have the intellectual capacity to comprehend:

1. A private two-tier system will take resource away from the public system, which will result in a WORSE system for most of the citizen.

2. Insurance company always pick patients. They will refuse coverage for serious ill as they will lose money on them. So those really sick and old will be dumped to the public system, resulting in even more financial burden for the government.

3. Free market system works well when buyers have good knowledge about the product that they are going to purchase. Because sellers will always try to sell you things you don't need, at a price you don't have to pay. Private medical system WILL over-diagnose and over-charge, because as a patient you usually don't know better.

Bottom line with provite health insurance, You will end up enduring unnecessary operations and procedures when you are healthy -- and when you are really sick, you may have trouble finding insurance company stupid enough to cover you.
 
最初由 msft 发布
Well, as a matter of fact, our system now is not really a 1-tier system. There is additional health insurance available for you to purchase and if needed that can be used to cover the cost to get treatment in US.

A small step toward a 2 tier system is the only way to solve our problem if we don't want to pay 70% tax.

You are right, as we already can pay for more than C$100 to upgrade to a semi or private room in hospital, which is a two tier system, why cann't we go a step further, but not die in this so-call one tier system.
 
最初由 rchland 发布


...
Bottom line with provite health insurance, You will end up enduring unnecessary operations and procedures when you are healthy -- and when you are really sick, you may have trouble finding insurance company stupid enough to cover you.

Bottom line is,

when you are able to pay, you get better and faster service;
when you are not, there is a system sponsored by government to treat you at a fair quality;

Whatelse do you want? Top quality service that costs little? It does not exist.
 
最初由 rchland 发布


Funny you mentioned UK. UK has even longer waiting time for vast majority of its citizen partly because its two tier system takeing away medical resources from the public system.

"a small fee, which is probably covered by insurance": Oh, really ?are those insurance company private for profit organization, or charity organization ? And how can they only charge you a "small fee", money grows on trees ? Just check your car insurance bill in Ontario lately to know the true cost of a private for-profit insurance system.

******************

He is talking about the premium not the cost, now our Ontario government is charging us anyway, so I would like this premium go as some private insurance than going to the government. So maybe you sitll have trust in this government, don't you know how much money have been wasted by this government did, maybe more than you can imagine. You only know that your car insurnace increase, maybe you don't know how much your tax dollor are given away by this government to their friend. To pay less tax, at least you can choose which insurance you want to go with.

******************

Now something serious, although I doubt you and people upstair have the intellectual capacity to comprehend:

1. A private two-tier system will take resource away from the public system, which will result in a WORSE system for most of the citizen.

*******************
Or it could attract more people from somewhere as US is attracting more Canadian doctors and nurses there and it has a two tier system.
******************

2. Insurance company always pick patients. They will refuse coverage for serious ill as they will lose money on them. So those really sick and old will be dumped to the public system, resulting in even more financial burden for the government.

**********************

You pay what you want to be insured. If you paid premium for cancer, you get the insurance paid for that treatmentif you have the cancer.
How come the insurance company can pick up patients?

**********************

3. Free market system works well when buyers have good knowledge about the product that they are going to purchase. Because sellers will always try to sell you things you don't need, at a price you don't have to pay. Private medical system WILL over-diagnose and over-charge, because as a patient you usually don't know better.

**********************

The doctor give you the diagnosis not the insurance company. Evn we are having a public health system, the doctors are private and they are paid by the government, If they want to over-diagnosis your problem, they can do it right now. Don't you hear that Ontario found fraud from doctor who over-charge the government. That's nothing to do with the two-tier system.

You doubt our intelligence, but your comments make me feel that you could have problem on it. Do some investigation on the system and then come to make an argument here.

Don't be afraid of the reform, and don't make scaring argument when people talking about the two tier system. Do some thinking and analysis. What I believe is having choice is better than no choice.

***********************

Bottom line with provite health insurance, You will end up enduring unnecessary operations and procedures when you are healthy -- and when you are really sick, you may have trouble finding insurance company stupid enough to cover you.
:p :mad:
 
天地下哪里有free lunch? 政府不过是拿了纳税人的钱,给纳税人做点事,这里面被被政府浪费掉的是很惊人的。

福利社会的乌托邦,在近百年的社会主义实践中,已经被证明是不现实的,加拿大对不现实的医疗福利的追求,已经四处碰壁,而劣质的服务和滥用医疗福利只是失败的一种表现。
 
He is talking about the premium not the cost, now our Ontario government is charging us anyway, so I would like this premium go as some private insurance than going to the government. So maybe you sitll have trust in this government, don't you know how much money have been wasted by this government did, maybe more than you can imagine. You only know that your car insurnace increase, maybe you don't know how much your tax dollor are given away by this government to their friend. To pay less tax, at least you can choose which insurance you want to go with.
******************

In a public system, at least the premium charged( which is usually called tax) doesn't include profit. So as a customer you have some saving right there.

In a two-tier system, those young and health will demand lower tax (and rightly so) as they don't use the public system. So where can the government get the money for those sick and old ? As we agreed, private for profit insurance company don't want them.


*******************
Or it could attract more people from somewhere as US is attracting more Canadian doctors and nurses there and it has a two tier system.
******************

This can happen if a country putting even MORE wealth into its medicare system. You are suggesting private primium in addition to public taxation.

The US spends $4,500 per capita per year on health, while Canada spends $2,300 us dollars. That's why they can have short waiting list.

**********************

You pay what you want to be insured. If you paid premium for cancer, you get the insurance paid for that treatmentif you have the cancer.
How come the insurance company can pick up patients?

**********************
In insurance business, there is a term called "pre-existing condition", which is often excluded from the new policy. You can fool them once - at your first disgnosis, they may have to pay up. But next time - thank you very much, nobody is stupid, we are here to make money, not to cure you.

**********************
Don't be afraid of the reform, and don't make scaring argument when people talking about the two tier system. Do some thinking and analysis. What I believe is having choice is better than no choice.
***********************

A choice is only better if you have good knowledge about your choices. In medicare, it's not the case. It's so easy for doctor and insurance company to cheat on you as medicine are so complicated and most people are not medical professionals. I won't entrust my body to greedy for-profit organizations.
 
You raised some interesting points. I'm glad that this topic finally caught some attention. :)

I've never lived in UK, so I get my knowledge of how the health care system works from newspapers. I'm not sure where you get your info from, but apparently the 2-tiered system works well in UK and other Enruopean countries. You can refer back to the article I quoted earlier in this topic.

You have to understand this: 2-tiered does not mean total privatization. It's not "our system vs. US system", there are other systems in this world that work well and worthy of our attention.

Now I'll answer each of your points:

1. With the current salary and shortage of medical staff, Canada has a difficulty of keeping our highly trained medical staff in Canada. With a 2-tiered system, more medical staff could stay in Canada while getting paid adequately, now that's ADDING resources to this country.

2. This is a typical scenario with the US system. The matter of fact is, in countries like UK, the private sector works WITH the public health care system in the sense that most private sectors concentrate on specialized medical treatment like MRI or cancer treatment. Take UK for example, the public sector even oursources patients to private sectors in case there is an overflow of patients in hospitals, but all expenses are paid by the public sector, hence free of all charges.

3. I'll follow your train of thoughts here: in a free-economy, in order to stay competitive, one must offer competitive price while providing quality goods and services. In fact, overcharging occurs even more frequently in public sectors, because they don't need to be fiscally responsibly for anything, this would not have been widely accepted in private sectors. Just look at what happened with all levels of governments and how they spend out money. Yes privatization sometimes means greed, but public services often result in bureaucracy and corruption which is even more damaging to our society. Private sectors are proven to be more efficient, which in the long run, could be more beneficial to taxpayers.

Again, I stress the difference between a 2-tiered system with US system. We have been pouring an enormous amount of money into health care, and it has only gotten worse. So the only conlusion is: it's not about money, it's the system, the system needs to be changed. Bottom line is: if I'm seriously ill and desperately need medical attention, I'll rather have that choice of seeking medical attention elsewhere, than waiting on deathrow.

Aside from your sarcastic tone, I'd really enjoyed discussing this issue with you. :)


最初由 rchland 发布


Funny you mentioned UK. UK has even longer waiting time for vast majority of its citizen partly because its two tier system takeing away medical resources from the public system.

"a small fee, which is probably covered by insurance": Oh, really ?are those insurance company private for profit organization, or charity organization ? And how can they only charge you a "small fee", money grows on trees ? Just check your car insurance bill in Ontario lately to know the true cost of a private for-profit insurance system.

Now something serious, although I doubt you and people upstair have the intellectual capacity to comprehend:

1. A private two-tier system will take resource away from the public system, which will result in a WORSE system for most of the citizen.

2. Insurance company always pick patients. They will refuse coverage for serious ill as they will lose money on them. So those really sick and old will be dumped to the public system, resulting in even more financial burden for the government.

3. Free market system works well when buyers have good knowledge about the product that they are going to purchase. Because sellers will always try to sell you things you don't need, at a price you don't have to pay. Private medical system WILL over-diagnose and over-charge, because as a patient you usually don't know better.

Bottom line with provite health insurance, You will end up enduring unnecessary operations and procedures when you are healthy -- and when you are really sick, you may have trouble finding insurance company stupid enough to cover you.
 
最初由 rchland 发布
He is talking about the premium not the cost, now our Ontario government is charging us anyway, so I would like this premium go as some private insurance than going to the government. So maybe you sitll have trust in this government, don't you know how much money have been wasted by this government did, maybe more than you can imagine. You only know that your car insurnace increase, maybe you don't know how much your tax dollor are given away by this government to their friend. To pay less tax, at least you can choose which insurance you want to go with.
******************

In a public system, at least the premium charged( which is usually called tax) doesn't include profit. So as a customer you have some saving right there.

In a two-tier system, those young and health will demand lower tax (and rightly so) as they don't use the public system. So where can the government get the money for those sick and old ? As we agreed, private for profit insurance company don't want them.


*******************
Or it could attract more people from somewhere as US is attracting more Canadian doctors and nurses there and it has a two tier system.
******************

This can happen if a country putting even MORE wealth into its medicare system. You are suggesting private primium in addition to public taxation.

The US spends $4,500 per capita per year on health, while Canada spends $2,300 us dollars. That's why they can have short waiting list.

**********************

You pay what you want to be insured. If you paid premium for cancer, you get the insurance paid for that treatmentif you have the cancer.
How come the insurance company can pick up patients?

**********************
In insurance business, there is a term called "pre-existing condition", which is often excluded from the new policy. You can fool them once - at your first disgnosis, they may have to pay up. But next time - thank you very much, nobody is stupid, we are here to make money, not to cure you.

**********************
Don't be afraid of the reform, and don't make scaring argument when people talking about the two tier system. Do some thinking and analysis. What I believe is having choice is better than no choice.
***********************

A choice is only better if you have good knowledge about your choices. In medicare, it's not the case. It's so easy for doctor and insurance company to cheat on you as medicine are so complicated and most people are not medical professionals. I won't entrust my body to greedy for-profit organizations.

So you would rather have the government waste your money than have the private sector make profit. Making profit mean more people will have job.

Having private insurance is just one of the solution. I don't know more about the insurance, but I feel there should a way to do this.
You sound that the insurance is afraid of paying for your long term disease or life insurnace. For car insurance, if you are hurt, the insurance company will pay for your healing, but that don't stop people to get insurance again. Yes, profit is the target of private sector, but don't you think being elected is the target of any party?
or serving you better is their target? I feel it's the former one.

To have the control of the health system is not for the purpose to serve you better, it's the power and the money. That's why now the Ontario premier is promising on the radio that this new health premium is going to health system only, which implies that a lot of tax money goo nowhere, but not the health system.

You sound like you trust more on the government than the private sector, you would rahter have the government to tax you to death
and waste your money by passing them to their friend, than seeing the private sector make profit. Well, that's your choice.
 
In US for instance, the insurance companies dictate where you can get your treatment and they tell you what kind of treatments you could get. You can't even choose the doctors, they do that for you. Also there is not one single free universal health care system that covers basic yet adequate services in the States.

I for instance do not want to have an US system in Canada, but a 2-tiered system is obviously different from the US system. It's definitely worth to take a serious look at. Our health care system has become this giant dinosaur that just cannot cope with an aging population and heavy taxation. The system needs to be changed, and it'll take a big man (or woman) to do that. So far, I have yet to see such man or woman in any party candidates.


最初由 lifeisfun 发布
Having private insurance is just one of the solution. I don't know more about the insurance, but I feel there should a way to do this.
You sound that the insurance is afraid of paying for your long term disease or life insurnace. For car insurance, if you are hurt, the insurance company will pay for your healing, but that don't stop people to get insurance again.
 
No medicare system in this world works better than the Canadian system. In Europe, average waiting time is EVEN longer than Canada.
In USA, average survial years of cancer patients are SHORTER than Canadians. And the end result is Canadian lives longer than British, French, German, Italian, American... etc.


最初由 渐渐 发布
You raised some interesting points. I'm glad that this topic finally caught some attention. :)

I've never lived in UK, so I get my knowledge of how the health care system works from newspapers. I'm not sure where you get your info from, but apparently the 2-tiered system works well in UK and other Enruopean countries. You can refer back to the article I quoted earlier in this topic.

You have to understand this: 2-tiered does not mean total privatization. It's not "our system vs. US system", there are other systems in this world that work well and worthy of our attention.

Now I'll answer each of your points:

1. With the current salary and shortage of medical staff, Canada has a difficulty of keeping our highly trained medical staff in Canada. With a 2-tiered system, more medical staff could stay in Canada while getting paid adequately, now that's ADDING resources to this country.

2. This is a typical scenario with the US system. The matter of fact is, in countries like UK, the private sector works WITH the public health care system in the sense that most private sectors concentrate on specialized medical treatment like MRI or cancer treatment. Take UK for example, the public sector even oursources patients to private sectors in case there is an overflow of patients in hospitals, but all expenses are paid by the public sector, hence free of all charges.

3. I'll follow your train of thoughts here: in a free-economy, in order to stay competitive, one must offer competitive price while providing quality goods and services. In fact, overcharging occurs even more frequently in public sectors, because they don't need to be fiscally responsibly for anything, this would not have been widely accepted in private sectors. Just look at what happened with all levels of governments and how they spend out money. Yes privatization sometimes means greed, but public services often result in bureaucracy and corruption which is even more damaging to our society. Private sectors are proven to be more efficient, which in the long run, could be more beneficial to taxpayers.

Again, I stress the difference between a 2-tiered system with US system. We have been pouring an enormous amount of money into health care, and it has only gotten worse. So the only conlusion is: it's not about money, it's the system, the system needs to be changed. Bottom line is: if I'm seriously ill and desperately need medical attention, I'll rather have that choice of seeking medical attention elsewhere, than waiting on deathrow.

Aside from your sarcastic tone, I'd really enjoyed discussing this issue with you. :)


 
European style two tier system have been studied to death by various governemntal reports and acedemic studies -- it won't work better.


最初由 渐渐 发布
In US for instance, the insurance companies dictate where you can get your treatment and they tell you what kind of treatments you could get. You can't even choose the doctors, they do that for you. Also there is not one single free universal health care system that covers basic yet adequate services in the States.

I for instance do not want to have an US system in Canada, but a 2-tiered system is obviously different from the US system. It's definitely worth to take a serious look at. Our health care system has become this giant dinosaur that just cannot cope with an aging population and heavy taxation. The system needs to be changed, and it'll take a big man (or woman) to do that. So far, I have yet to see such man or woman in any party candidates.


 
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