再看中美对抗,鲜血换来尊严[转贴]

一个不懂的尊重自己的,没有骨气的民族,是不会获得别人的尊重。
别忘了,就算输了,也要赢得对手的尊重--这就是尊严。
不论是西方价值观,还是东方价值观从来都是建立在实力的基础上,尊重强者的。
我不认为谁可以放弃一切种族,国家的背景,来讨论问题。这是没有意义的。
是中国人,就一定会站在中国的立场来来讨论问题的。
 
一个民族是需要一点精神的!人也一样!
 
来加以来, 自然地经过了各种文化冲击. 其中之一就是对生命的态度.
在中国(或日本), 国家集体利益高于一切, 因此也没有了个人; 在这, 每个人是独立的个体, 可以有独立的思想, 更可以自由地表达言论.
在中国, 经常听到为了国家财产付出生命的英雄; 在这, 意外发生只要没有人员伤亡大家就觉得还不算太坏.
这之间的差别就是对待"人"的差别, 是生命的价值.

舍己为人的英雄在哪都是值得尊重的. 但鼓吹英雄精神是另一种欺骗.
反正是别人的鲜血吧.

最初由 辟邪 发布
至于你说的邱少云,用头发长见识短来评价是对广大
妇女的歧视,但我实在找不出更合适的话来表述。
 
yh_abc: You seem like a reasonable person, so I'm going to respond to your comment. :)

I'm not debating on the type of the war, whether it is offensive or defensive, but rather the nature of war, or the war itself. Does what your said contradicts what I said - "there is no winner in a war"? Everyone loses no matter what, and I don't even need to list the examples to demonstrate this point, do I?

There are true heros who sacrifice their lives to save others', they overcome personal benefits and rise to the occasion. And there are man-made heros whose actions are exaggerated or even falsified by the media (in China, the state) in order to hypnotize the public. Now I really like to get inside the minds of those making man-made heros and ask "why"? Systematic brain-washing is a powerful method, so powerful that even American prisonners of war agreed after a few years of "education" that "communism may not work in America, but it sure does work for China".

Even better, let me ask you this: are you ready to sacrifice your life for your country? If your answer is yes, I applaud your courage and you have my respect. However if the answer is no, then how could you demande other people to sacrifice their lives to save your country (or yours for that matter)?

Lastly, I'll say this for the record: true heros are borderless, that is whether they are Chinese or Canadian is not the issue, they are respected and will be remembered always.


最初由 yh_abc 发布
Sage,if your logic were correct, the Anti-Japanese war was totally a mistake because Chinese, as a nation, has sacrificed so much and lost so much. With your logic, China should simple accept its fate being invaded, right ?
What should I say you !
But anyway, MeiGu, never mind, China will never be insulted because in this world, there are always those authentic CHINESE who will endeavour whatever necessary to fight/sacrifice for the esteem of being CHINESE.
I still appreciate what Chairman Mao once said, "I won't offend others UNLESS I am offended".
 
911后小布什参加众议院会议, 众人起立鼓掌几十次. 这种情景只有在当年的苏共中央党代会上才看得到.
美国为了国家安全已经侵犯了太多个人利益, 包括他们的宪法: 1st amendment - freedom of expression, 2nd amendment - right to own firearms, 4th amendment - unreasonable searches and seisures, 6th amendment - right to a speedy and public trial, etc. 李文和事件更是各种侵犯的极端.
 
And they are the true heros! Not only those who died in the war, but those who endured the loss of their beloved ones and continue to sacrifice their personal gains for their country in whichever way possible. They are the true heros!

While the death of Mao Anying was tragic to his father, he was a soldier and his life was no more precious than anybody else. I highly sympathize with Chairman Mao for the loss of his son, as a father, and for that reason, I stop myself from questionning the purpose of Mao Anying being in the Korean War in the first place. People who fought the war with Mao Anying recalled his short duration in Korea as "living like a regular soldier". He too, is a true hero!
 
最初由 billsun 发布
一个不懂的尊重自己的,没有骨气的民族,是不会获得别人的尊重。
别忘了,就算输了,也要赢得对手的尊重--这就是尊严。
不论是西方价值观,还是东方价值观从来都是建立在实力的基础上,尊重强者的。
我不认为谁可以放弃一切种族,国家的背景,来讨论问题。这是没有意义的。
是中国人,就一定会站在中国的立场来来讨论问题的。

看来,如今的小青年已经照单全收了共产党灌下去的迷魂汤了。狭隘民族主义旗帜下的中国人,可能永远不能理解德国总理勃兰特为什么要在华沙犹太人殉难者纪念碑前下跪的举动,更不能理解收看勃兰特下跪电视直播的德国民众为什么如此尊重他们的总理给别人下跪的举动,更理解不了为什么勃兰特能获得诺贝尔和平奖。

法西斯主义是全人类共同的敌人,共产主义也是。
 
最初由 sage 发布
来加以来, 自然地经过了各种文化冲击. 其中之一就是对生命的态度.
在中国(或日本), 国家集体利益高于一切, 因此也没有了个人; 在这, 每个人是独立的个体, 可以有独立的思想, 更可以自由地表达言论.
在中国, 经常听到为了国家财产付出生命的英雄; 在这, 意外发生只要没有人员伤亡大家就觉得还不算太坏.
这之间的差别就是对待"人"的差别, 是生命的价值.

舍己为人的英雄在哪都是值得尊重的. 但鼓吹英雄精神是另一种欺骗.
反正是别人的鲜血吧.

“如果他当时滚到一米之隔的水坑里,真的会影响甚至改变整个战斗的结果吗?鼓吹这种精神的人又是何用心?”这应该是你的原话。说你见识短是为了这句话。

在那种情况下,他滚动一下的后果是什么应该不难想象。美国人的眼睛就盯着火堆。
讨论到这里也许太细节了,但非如此不足以明白“纪律”“意志”。只有打胜仗,
大家才会有更多的人活下来。如果他当时自救灭火,99%的可能性是被惊动的美军
的后续炮火击中。
 
最初由 美丽世界的孤儿 发布
实在没有时间和精力来争论煤球是黑的还是白的这样的问题。

恕不奉陪!

离开之前推荐2本书:

1。美国将军李奇微写的《朝鲜战争〉〉
2。美国前国防部长麦克纳马拉写的《越南战争〉〉

我识字不多,书也看得少。但这2本书“碰巧“ 看过。

祝鬼节愉快!



这位,在这里耍小孩子脾气只能说明你还没长大。这么容易就被激怒了,你的社会阅历和为人处世还得多练练。
 
我只不过提出疑问,你就这么肯定会是这种结果?99%的可能性又是从何而来的?
“只有打胜仗,大家才会有更多的人活下来“ -不明白这里面的道理。
历史究竟如何谁也不知道。你能想象多年以后我们历史书对六四的评价吗?


最初由 辟邪 发布

“如果他当时滚到一米之隔的水坑里,真的会影响甚至改变整个战斗的结果吗?鼓吹这种精神的人又是何用心?”这应该是你的原话。说你见识短是为了这句话。

在那种情况下,他滚动一下的后果是什么应该不难想象。美国人的眼睛就盯着火堆。讨论到这里也许太细节了,但非如此不足以明白“纪律”“意志”。只有打胜仗,大家才会有更多的人活下来。如果他当时自救灭火,99%的可能性是被惊动的美军的后续炮火击中。
 
最初由 sage 发布
And they are the true heros! Not only those who died in the war, but those who endured the loss of their beloved ones and continue to sacrifice their personal gains for their country in whichever way possible. They are the true heros!

While the death of Mao Anying was tragic to his father, he was a soldier and his life was no more precious than anybody else. I highly sympathize with Chairman Mao for the loss of his son, as a father, and for that reason, I stop myself from questionning the purpose of Mao Anying being in the Korean War in the first place. People who fought the war with Mao Anying recalled his short duration in Korea as "living like a regular soldier". He too, is a true hero!

得了,如果他只是一个普通士兵,他就不该和彭德怀一起在军部。如果他不是在那场轰炸中躲在桌子地下,他就不会牺牲,如果美国鬼子没用凝固汽油弹而是普通炸弹,他也不会牺牲,如果他没有牺牲,那么...

嘿嘿....

帝王们要儿子即位,总是要放出去历练历练的。
 
SAGE:“尊严不一定要用鲜血来换。更何况是他人的鲜血。”

在朝鲜战场上,中美军队都有伤亡,美国人流的血更是为别人而流的,这该怎么理解?最重视人的生命的美国人为什么要这样流血牺牲呢?还有越南战争也是一样。看看半个世纪来,是否最爱惜生命的国家,恰巧是发动战争最多的国家?因为流的不是自己的血?(用高技术打非接触战争,死的都是别人,那大概不算生命吧)
 
最初由 sage 发布
yh_abc: You seem like a reasonable person, so I'm going to respond to your comment. :)
..............
Even better, let me ask you this: are you ready to sacrifice your life for your country? If your answer is yes, I applaud your courage and you have my respect. However if the answer is no, then how could you demande other people to sacrifice their lives to save your country (or yours for that matter)?

Sage, to your question, there is only one word out of my answer, "YES", even if I will get Canadidan citizenship soon. (because I still have all my dearest there, including my treasured memories and experience which will be left there forever.)
It seems you always want to distinguish "You" and "Other people", but pls be advised that as a nation, all the decedants of the nation will treat themselves as one person, for better explaination, think of your family, if your family is under the invasion of some outsiders, whatever the purpose, will you still distinguish yourself from other members of the family in terms of responsibilties to avoid the invasion ? A nation and a family is the same in many respects except for the size.
I agree that war itself is not welcome everywhere, I also agree life is precious, but I still must argue that sense of esteem and respect is far more important in most of the time. Let's just use a simple example to demonstrate this: if your girlfriend / wife were bullied by some bastards, and you happend to have some kind of defensive weapons on hand, would you fight back or NOT ? (Assume the fight may result in serious body injuries or even death, also assume you do not have time to call for help). To me, I will not hesitate to fight back even at the risk of my life, at that time, the value of life to me is that I can overpower those bastards.
Of course, if we cannot agree upon the basic point, which is "Life can be sacrificed for something else", I will stop arguing with you any more because we are not in the same boat at all.
 
最初由 sage 发布
我只不过提出疑问,你就这么肯定会是这种结果?99%的可能性又是从何而来的?
“只有打胜仗,大家才会有更多的人活下来“ -不明白这里面的道理。
历史究竟如何谁也不知道。你能想象多年以后我们历史书对六四的评价吗?



打个不恰当的比方,古代人们狩猎,为什么要把动物从林子里轰出来?当然被轰
出来的动物一般不会99%的被杀(如果猎人不想斩尽杀绝)

历史是朝鲜战争后中国有了几十年的和平(从鸦片战争到1949间是什么样子,
你自己去翻历史罢)

历史的标准不是因为这是中国人或美国人的表述。很不幸的是很多人(中国人)
在否定了共产党的历史后,在接受外国人的标准时犯了同样的错误。
 
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