Watching the debates and one will realize why atheists hold the Darwinism so dearly - that's the only straw they could hold on to.
好笑的基督教
- 主题发起人 terry890
- 开始时间
Watching the debates and one will realize why atheists hold the Darwinism so dearly - that's the only straw they could hold on to.
- 注册
- 2012-03-04
- 消息
- 1,347
- 荣誉分数
- 124
- 声望点数
- 223
新年快乐！假还放着，提前到CFC上班
“它不需要逻辑，也不需要世俗意义上的基本概念” 是俺自己的话，所以难免漏洞百出:blowzy: 换一个说法：宗教的起点并不是世俗意义上的“基本概念”，不是世俗意义上的善恶标准，当然它的起点也不是人的逻辑了。这里的宗教俺指“有一个万能的神”的宗教，不包括佛教
比如在基督教里，既然存在一位创造天地万物，祂世间一切权柄都在于祂，生死在于祂，生命的意义也在于祂 －－因为是神创造了人；世间万事的发生也在于祂，所以善恶标准也在于祂－－所有这一切神有神的理由（或者说逻辑），祂不一定需要告诉人，祂告诉人了，人也不一定理解
如果拿人的逻辑（可能“逻辑”里面也包含了判别价值的标准）去评判这样的宗教，本身就不符合人的逻辑。因为人不能看到宇宙的前生，不能看到人的来世，人拿人能看到的这一局部去评判全部
前面讲宗教不需要“逻辑”，反过来讲，既然万物皆来自于神，神自然也不会违反来自于祂的逻辑，所以宗教也是有逻辑的。困难在于，当我们去评判一个宗教的时候，如何在“逻辑”中将“人定义的局部标准”撇除掉；其次，如何界定人认识上的局限？比如600年前人认为地球是平的，太阳围绕着地球转。当时的基督教徒也根据这种知识去解释圣经，同时忽略了圣经里面暗示地球是一个球体，悬浮在太空的经文。也就是说，当我们拿人的逻辑去检验宗教，或者去检验那些人类尚不了解的事务的时候，人怎么知道哪些已知知识是可靠的？
不管怎么说，肯定存在一些客观的逻辑、可靠的知识可以用来检验宗教
回到蚂蚁和大象的例子，俺认为这些例子一点不可笑，俺也不能完整地回答这个问题。提供一点想法：
如果有人宣称两只蚂蚁创造了天地，没有任何别的信息，那么谁爱信谁信去；
如果还有别的信息，我们可以拿那些“客观的逻辑”“可靠的知识”去检验这两只蚂蚁
进化论正是这样一个东西，被拿来检验基督教是否虚假，从它诞生的第一天起，它就没有被人（包括科学界）看成一个单纯的科学问题，这也是阿Q在此楼反反复复讲的观点
你的话太多，其实评判宗教，不怕什么科学。怕的是其他宗教。有的人就把个大石头当神，如澳洲中间的个大石头，你检验了，他们信吗？新年快乐！假还放着，提前到CFC上班
“它不需要逻辑，也不需要世俗意义上的基本概念” 是俺自己的话，所以难免漏洞百出:blowzy: 换一个说法：宗教的起点并不是世俗意义上的“基本概念”，不是世俗意义上的善恶标准，当然它的起点也不是人的逻辑了。这里的宗教俺指“有一个万能的神”的宗教，不包括佛教
比如在基督教里，既然存在一位创造天地万物，祂世间一切权柄都在于祂，生死在于祂，生命的意义也在于祂 －－因为是神创造了人；世间万事的发生也在于祂，所以善恶标准也在于祂－－所有这一切神有神的理由（或者说逻辑），祂不一定需要告诉人，祂告诉人了，人也不一定理解
如果拿人的逻辑（可能“逻辑”里面也包含了判别价值的标准）去评判这样的宗教，本身就不符合人的逻辑。因为人不能看到宇宙的前生，不能看到人的来世，人拿人能看到的这一局部去评判全部
前面讲宗教不需要“逻辑”，反过来讲，既然万物皆来自于神，神自然也不会违反来自于祂的逻辑，所以宗教也是有逻辑的。困难在于，当我们去评判一个宗教的时候，如何在“逻辑”中将“人定义的局部标准”撇除掉；其次，如何界定人认识上的局限？比如600年前人认为地球是平的，太阳围绕着地球转。当时的基督教徒也根据这种知识去解释圣经，同时忽略了圣经里面暗示地球是一个球体，悬浮在太空的经文。也就是说，当我们拿人的逻辑去检验宗教，或者去检验那些人类尚不了解的事务的时候，人怎么知道哪些已知知识是可靠的？
不管怎么说，肯定存在一些客观的逻辑、可靠的知识可以用来检验宗教
回到蚂蚁和大象的例子，俺认为这些例子一点不可笑，俺也不能完整地回答这个问题。提供一点想法：
如果有人宣称两只蚂蚁创造了天地，没有任何别的信息，那么谁爱信谁信去；
如果还有别的信息，我们可以拿那些“客观的逻辑”“可靠的知识”去检验这两只蚂蚁
进化论正是这样一个东西，被拿来检验基督教是否虚假，从它诞生的第一天起，它就没有被人（包括科学界）看成一个单纯的科学问题，这也是阿Q在此楼反反复复讲的观点
宗教是'拿来'去敬畏的，崇拜的，信仰的，而不是象你家做馒头的面团子，可以揉来揉去滴。
- 注册
- 2008-10-02
- 消息
- 27,099
- 荣誉分数
- 7,176
- 声望点数
- 373
Watching the debates and one will realize why atheists hold the Darwinism so dearly - that's the only straw they could hold on to.
你说得好笑。无神论者根本不需要稻草和上帝这样的东西。
宗教是面团子,真理不是. 宗教是骗人的,真理是救人的. 所以, 宗教徒害怕讨论他们的宗教;因为他们的宗教见不得阳光. 而真理的信从者非常乐意和别人分享讨论他们的信仰, 因为真理是生命的光,能够驱散一切黑暗!
主耶稣就是这真理,就是这生命的光 - 真理使你得自由!
新年快乐!
红字部分,正是进化论早已不再是科学理论而是宗教信仰这一观点的主要依据 - 进化论"进化"到现在, 已经偏离了科学研究的基本原则 - 证据到哪里, 结论就到哪里.
科学的结论不一定是正确的结论, 只是依据于已有的科学事实的逻辑的推论. 这个推论是可以被证实也可以被证伪的.
当一个科学理论在提出一百多年之后还没有任何科学证据支持反而出现大量勿容置疑反证的情况下还被当作勿容置疑的科学事实, 当作勿容置疑的'真理'的时候, 这就不是科学而是宗教了.
- 注册
- 2012-03-04
- 消息
- 1,347
- 荣誉分数
- 124
- 声望点数
- 223
开始提供一些支持/质疑宏进化的证据。这个网站列举了一些无神论科学家质疑宏进化/无生命到生命，包括诺奖获得者，包括在Science、Nature发表的论文:http://www.reocities.com/promo777/quotesof.htm
先看看Crick, Francis的观点，Crick是DNA双螺旋结构的发明者，并因此获得1962年诺奖，后来他的主要精力花在non-living to living的研究上。他是众所周知的无神论者，并且声称无神论是驱动他研究DNA结构的主要动机之一。同时也是在1986年支持进化论的statement上签字的72名诺奖得主之一。
Life Itself: Its Origin and Nature (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1981) 192 pp.
"If a particular amino acid sequence was selected by chance, how rare an event would this be?
"This is an easy exercise in combinatorials. Suppose the chain is about two hundred amino acids long; this is, if anything rather less than the average length of proteins of all types. Since we have just twenty possibilities at each place, the number of possibilities is twenty multiplied by itself some two hundred times. This is conveniently written 20200 and is approximately equal to 10260, that is, a one followed by 260 zeros.
"Moreover, we have only considered a polypeptide chain of rather modest length. Had we considered longer ones as well, the figure would have been even more immense. The great majority of sequences can never have been synthesized at all, at any time." pp. 51-52
"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going." p. 88
“...so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going. But this should not be taken to imply that there are good reasons to believe that it could not have started on the earth by a perfectly reasonable sequence of fairly ordinary chemical reactions. The plain fact is that the time available was too long, the many microenvironments on the earth's surface too diverse, the various chemical possibilities too numerous and our own knowledge and imagination too feeble to allow us to be able to unravel exactly how it might or might not have happened such a long time ago, especially as we have no experimental evidence from that era to check our ideas against.”
阿Q试图理解Crick的态度，前面讲生命起源从数学上微乎其微的可能性，接着“作为一个诚实的人，生命的起源是一个奇迹”，最后又讲地球历史这么长。。。
In 1973, Crick proposed a theory of directed panspermia, suggesting that life on earth could have originated from DNA "seeds" projected into space by an extraterrestrial civilisation：
"Life did not evolve first on Earth, a highly advanced civilization became threatened so they devised a way to pass on their existence. They genetically-modified their DNA and sent it out from their planet on bacteria or meteorites with the hope that it would collide with another planet.
It did, and that's why we're here. The DNA molecule is the most efficient information storage system in the entire universe. The immensity of complex, coded and precisely sequenced information is absolutely staggering. The DNA evidence speaks of intelligent, information-bearing design. Complex DNA coding would have been necessary for even the hypothetical first ‘so-called' simple cell(s). Our DNA was encoded with messages from that other civilization. They programmed the molecules so that when we reached a certain level of intelligence, we would be able to access their information, and they could therefore "teach" us about ourselves, and how to progress. For life to form by chance is mathematically virtually impossible."
先看看Crick, Francis的观点，Crick是DNA双螺旋结构的发明者，并因此获得1962年诺奖，后来他的主要精力花在non-living to living的研究上。他是众所周知的无神论者，并且声称无神论是驱动他研究DNA结构的主要动机之一。同时也是在1986年支持进化论的statement上签字的72名诺奖得主之一。
Life Itself: Its Origin and Nature (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1981) 192 pp.
"If a particular amino acid sequence was selected by chance, how rare an event would this be?
"This is an easy exercise in combinatorials. Suppose the chain is about two hundred amino acids long; this is, if anything rather less than the average length of proteins of all types. Since we have just twenty possibilities at each place, the number of possibilities is twenty multiplied by itself some two hundred times. This is conveniently written 20200 and is approximately equal to 10260, that is, a one followed by 260 zeros.
"Moreover, we have only considered a polypeptide chain of rather modest length. Had we considered longer ones as well, the figure would have been even more immense. The great majority of sequences can never have been synthesized at all, at any time." pp. 51-52
"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going." p. 88
“...so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going. But this should not be taken to imply that there are good reasons to believe that it could not have started on the earth by a perfectly reasonable sequence of fairly ordinary chemical reactions. The plain fact is that the time available was too long, the many microenvironments on the earth's surface too diverse, the various chemical possibilities too numerous and our own knowledge and imagination too feeble to allow us to be able to unravel exactly how it might or might not have happened such a long time ago, especially as we have no experimental evidence from that era to check our ideas against.”
阿Q试图理解Crick的态度，前面讲生命起源从数学上微乎其微的可能性，接着“作为一个诚实的人，生命的起源是一个奇迹”，最后又讲地球历史这么长。。。
In 1973, Crick proposed a theory of directed panspermia, suggesting that life on earth could have originated from DNA "seeds" projected into space by an extraterrestrial civilisation：
"Life did not evolve first on Earth, a highly advanced civilization became threatened so they devised a way to pass on their existence. They genetically-modified their DNA and sent it out from their planet on bacteria or meteorites with the hope that it would collide with another planet.
It did, and that's why we're here. The DNA molecule is the most efficient information storage system in the entire universe. The immensity of complex, coded and precisely sequenced information is absolutely staggering. The DNA evidence speaks of intelligent, information-bearing design. Complex DNA coding would have been necessary for even the hypothetical first ‘so-called' simple cell(s). Our DNA was encoded with messages from that other civilization. They programmed the molecules so that when we reached a certain level of intelligence, we would be able to access their information, and they could therefore "teach" us about ourselves, and how to progress. For life to form by chance is mathematically virtually impossible."
- 注册
- 2003-09-30
- 消息
- 79,763
- 荣誉分数
- 23,535
- 声望点数
- 1,373
AQ,外星人创造地球生命和上帝创造是有本质区别滴。你说，基督教是宗教吗？
新年快乐！
新年快乐！
- 注册
- 2012-03-04
- 消息
- 1,347
- 荣誉分数
- 124
- 声望点数
- 223
鸭子，新年快乐！俺在此楼中的观点很明确：从“科学”的角度看进化论。外星人、上帝创造那是另一回事了。。。俺只关心进化论是不是一个不可置疑的科学结论？号称科学界压倒一切的支持进化论，科学界也明确、坚定地支持将进化论当成一个真理在公立学校讲授
看看一些象Crick这样在支持进化论statement上签字的真正的科学家的观点，可能有助于俺的理解
- 注册
- 2012-03-04
- 消息
- 1,347
- 荣誉分数
- 124
- 声望点数
- 223
再看看Michael Denton在著名的Evolution: A Theory in Crisis一书中的一些观点。
Michael Denton： In 1973, Denton received his PhD in Biochemistry from King's College London，宣称自己是一个未知论者。Denton is best known for his 1985 book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, in the book he presented a systematic critique of neo-darwinism ranging from paleontology, fossils, homology, molecular biology, genetics and biochemistry and argued that evidence of design exists in nature. Denton however is not a creationist. He describes himself as an evolutionist, and he has rejected biblical creationism.
Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (London: Burnett Books, Ltd., 1985), 368 pp.
"Even today we have no way of rigorously estimating the probability or degree of isolation of even one functional protein. It is surely a little premature to claim that random processes could have assembled mosquitoes and elephants when we still have to determine the actual probability of the discovery by chance of one single functional protein molecule." p. 324
"Altogether a typical cell contains about ten million million atoms. Suppose we choose to build an exact replica to a scale one thousand million times that of the cell so that each atom of the model would be the size of a tennis ball. Constructing such a model at the rate of one atom per minute, it would take fifty million years to finish, and the object we would end up with would be the giant factory, described above, some twenty kilometres in diameter, with a volume thousands of times that of the Great Pyramid."pp. 329-330
"Altogether the total number of connections in the human brain approaches 1015 or a thousand million million. Numbers in the order of 1015 are of course completely beyond comprehension. Imagine an area about half the size of the USA (one million square miles) covered in a forest of trees containing ten thousand trees per square mile. If each tree contained one hundred thousand leaves the total number of leaves in the forest would be 1015, equivalent to the number of connections in the human brain." p. 330
"The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system; it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. The information necessary to specify the design of all the species of organisms which have ever existed on the planet, a number according to G. G. Simpson of approximately one thousand million, could be held in a teaspoon and there would still be room left for all the information in every book ever written." p. 334
"It is the sheer universality of perfection, the fact that everywhere we look, to whatever depth we look, we find an elegance and ingenuity of an absolutely transcending quality, which so mitigates against the idea of chance.Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which--a functional protein or gene--is complex beyond our own creative capacities, a reality which is the very antithesis of chance, which excels in every sense anything produced by the intelligence of man? Alongside the level of ingenuity and complexity exhibited by the molecular machinery of life, even our most advanced artifacts appear clumsy." p. 342
Michael Denton： In 1973, Denton received his PhD in Biochemistry from King's College London，宣称自己是一个未知论者。Denton is best known for his 1985 book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, in the book he presented a systematic critique of neo-darwinism ranging from paleontology, fossils, homology, molecular biology, genetics and biochemistry and argued that evidence of design exists in nature. Denton however is not a creationist. He describes himself as an evolutionist, and he has rejected biblical creationism.
Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (London: Burnett Books, Ltd., 1985), 368 pp.
"Even today we have no way of rigorously estimating the probability or degree of isolation of even one functional protein. It is surely a little premature to claim that random processes could have assembled mosquitoes and elephants when we still have to determine the actual probability of the discovery by chance of one single functional protein molecule." p. 324
"Altogether a typical cell contains about ten million million atoms. Suppose we choose to build an exact replica to a scale one thousand million times that of the cell so that each atom of the model would be the size of a tennis ball. Constructing such a model at the rate of one atom per minute, it would take fifty million years to finish, and the object we would end up with would be the giant factory, described above, some twenty kilometres in diameter, with a volume thousands of times that of the Great Pyramid."pp. 329-330
"Altogether the total number of connections in the human brain approaches 1015 or a thousand million million. Numbers in the order of 1015 are of course completely beyond comprehension. Imagine an area about half the size of the USA (one million square miles) covered in a forest of trees containing ten thousand trees per square mile. If each tree contained one hundred thousand leaves the total number of leaves in the forest would be 1015, equivalent to the number of connections in the human brain." p. 330
"The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system; it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. The information necessary to specify the design of all the species of organisms which have ever existed on the planet, a number according to G. G. Simpson of approximately one thousand million, could be held in a teaspoon and there would still be room left for all the information in every book ever written." p. 334
"It is the sheer universality of perfection, the fact that everywhere we look, to whatever depth we look, we find an elegance and ingenuity of an absolutely transcending quality, which so mitigates against the idea of chance.Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which--a functional protein or gene--is complex beyond our own creative capacities, a reality which is the very antithesis of chance, which excels in every sense anything produced by the intelligence of man? Alongside the level of ingenuity and complexity exhibited by the molecular machinery of life, even our most advanced artifacts appear clumsy." p. 342
