好笑的基督教

[qwerty0]

Buffon系列之二

跑一下题，看一下巴黎大学的一些信息

还有更多:

Another step was when Pope Alexander III in 1179 "forbidding masters of the church schools to take fees for granting the license to teach (licentia docendi), and obliging them to give license to properly qualified teachers".

The University of Paris was formally recognized when Pope Gregory IX issued the bull Parens scientiarum (1231). This was a revolutionary step: studium generale (university) and universitas (corporation of students or teachers) existed even before, but after the issuing of the bull, they attained autonomy. "The papal bull of 1233, which stipulated that anyone admitted to be a teacher in Toulouse had the right to teach everywhere without further examinations (ius ubique docendi), in time, transformed this privilege into the single most important defining characteristic of the university and made it the symbol of its institutional autonomy . . .

Universities were generally structured along three types, depending on who paid the teachers. ..The second type was in Paris, where teachers were paid by the church. ...

以下来自Wiki

In 1200, King Philip II issued a diploma "for the security of the scholars of Paris" that made the students subject only to ecclesiastical jurisdiction... ... The king's officers could never lay hands on the head of the schools unless they had a mandate from an ecclesiastical authority.

-- 阿Q：可能有人将这个理解为教会完全操控了大学，便于“用神学束缚思想”，也有人不这样看“which meant they had a high level of immunity to secular justice and were instead tried by the much gentler ecclesiastical courts”

 

[CHRIS88]

Well, I guess you can check it out for yourself. It must be quite a job though. :blowzy:

Here is another list for your reference:

天主教神职人员中的科学家们
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_685210990101bnfy.html

Another list might be of interest:

Famous Scientists Who Believed in God
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html#einstein

 

[qwerty0]

Buffon系列之三

Buffon是不是一个基督徒？俺不知道。

下面罗列俺所找到的所有提到Buffon宗教信仰的不同看法。可能很多人认为Buffon在挑战圣经，当然是无神论，至少不是基督徒。

http://www.answers.com/topic/georges-louis-leclerc-comte-de-buffon

While Buffon evidently satisfied all the outward forms of Christian practice, he almost certainly was a deist in the 1730s and may very well have become an atheist in his later years. ...

不同的看法：

大英百科

In 1785 Buffon’s health began to decline. At the beginning of 1788, feeling his end near, he returned to Paris. Unable to leave his room, he was visited each day by his friend Mme Necker, the wife of the finance minister Jacques Necker. Mme Necker, who was with him to the very end, is said to have understood him to murmur, “I declare that I die in the religion in which I was born. . . . I declare publicly that I believe in it.”

NNDB直接将Buffon归到Christian里

http://knarf.english.upenn.edu/Buffon/bio.html：
Toward the end of his life, he was often visited by Mme Necker, wife of the French Minister of Finance, Jacques Necker, to whom he made a declaration on his deathbed that he was a devout Christian

他临死前对他朋友的私下谈话被作为他是一个基督徒的最直接证明，下面是比较完整的版本：
The salon of Madame Necker by vocomte d'Haussonville

"I declare that I die in the religion in which I was born, and publicly attest that I believe in Jesus Christ who came down from heaven on to the earth for the salvation of men; I pray that He will watch over me and protect me, and I declare publicly that I believe in his protection"

 

[qwerty0]

Buffon系列之四

“基督徒”有没有烧Buffon的书？

如Blog：“The devout are furious and want to have it burned by the executioner. Truly he contradicts Genesis in every way.’ (this may be the source of the for the idea Buffon's books were burned which I can't find reference to elsewhere”

找了好一些提到烧书的网站，全部都没有列出烧书的信息来源：

网站1
For this he was condemned by the Catholic Church in France and his books were burned

网站2
In fact, his ideas were so controversial among the devout that Catholics had publicly burned his books during his lifetime

网站3
Such radical departures from orthodox views did not sit well with the Church establishment. This resulted in the burning of his books: a rather harsh, and certainly futile, treatment of precious books, but it is some come consolation that Buffon himself was not subjected to a similar expression of wrath

网站4
he proclaimed that the age of the Earth was 75 000 years; as a result the Catholic Church ordered that his books should be burnt

基于以下原因，阿Q个人不认可烧书的指控：

1、放在“宗教与科学”为敌这个题目下，烧书不是一件小事。但是确实没有找到指控的依据，Wiki、大英百科等相对严谨的网站也没有收录

2、从这篇Blog看出－－遗憾的是也没有找到别的更加详细的Buffon事件的文章，牵涉到Buffon事件的有三个与基督教相关的团体，都不可能下达烧书的命令
＊耶稣会Jesuits是支持Buffon的；
＊Sorbonne大学有权力下达Order吗？Blog作者也认为Sorbonne是出于保护Buffon的角度－－签署Retraction，书可以一字不改出版，双方也都能下台；
＊真正反对Buffon的是Jansenism詹森主义，遗憾的是Jansenism是被天主教会视为异端，它的出版物officially banned by the French government but regularly published and distributed

3、那也不排除一些基督徒烧书啊！对，但是看历史不能莫须有，需要看证据。就算真的有一些个人行为，能上升到什么高度？

关于Buffon事件，对阿Q来讲，只有一个问题了：Retraction statements。可惜资料太少，很难了解事情的原委，也不了解历史背景，难以了解Buffon的压力。另一个存疑是Buffon的宗教信仰，假设他是一个基督徒，恐怕签署一份相信神创造的信，也难以将此上升到什么高度

待续

 

[CHRIS88]

Interesting debates on Design and Fine Tuning.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYru9hUYqMs[/media]

 

[CHRIS88]

Highly recommended to both sides:

Christopher Hitchens vs William Lane Craig - Does God Exist Debate
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FofDChlSILU&noredirect=1"]Christopher Hitchens vs William Lane Craig - Does God Exist Debate - YouTube[/ame]

 

[qwerty0]

Buffon系列之五

1751年究竟因为什么Retract？

1779年的第二次Retraction，综合多方资料，结论应该是无争论的：Buffon答应将Retraction刊登在他的下一版书上，但是并没有，所以略过。下面是关于1751年Buffon被“迫”签retracrtion的描述

“修饰性”的描述
The theologians, of course, could not tolerate this, and Buffon was censored by the theological faculty of the Sorbonne. He had to publish a retraction and had to be very careful in his later writings about how he presented his non-creationist history of the Earth

“客观性”的描述版本
The early volumes were condemned by the Faculty of Theology at the Sorbonne. Buffon published a retraction, but he continued publishing the offending volumes without any change

那么究竟Sorbonne Condemm了布封什么东西呢？好不容易找到了这个资料：

In 1751, when he was forty-four years of age, the Sorbonne condemned him to retract the heresy which he had made in publishing these words:"The waters of the sea have produced the mountains and valleys of the land; the waters of the heavens, reducing all to a level, will at last deliver the whole land over to the sea, and the sea successively prevailing over the land, will leave dry new continents like those which we inhabit"

事实上，Sorbonne给Buffon的信中附加了Buffon的14个“reprehensible statements”，但上面是唯一一个与地理学（科学）相关，也是阿Q唯一能找到的

阿Q当然没有看Buffon这本书，不清楚这段话的前后文，但是直觉产生几个疑问：
1、被Sorbonne指责的这些话跟科学有关系吗？
2、至少不是通过“科学”方法得出的“科学结论”吧？
3、如果说不是科学，至少是哲学或者思想，这些东西也不能受压制，也必须有自由。附加上Retraction后，书没有任何修改继续出版。什么才叫“自由”，俺就不参和了

待续

 

[qwerty0]

Buffon系列之三 补充

Buffon的宗教信仰，另一个说法 --

At the age of thirty-five he had achieved success and professional reputation, although his Christian faith had been severely shaken by the fossil record. All the evidence seemed to indicate a great age for the earth rather than the few thousand years of the Mosaic account. At this point he married a Protestant widow with four children, and it is reported that he then had a revival of his faith (Bourdier 1971, 526). Shortly after this he developed a theory for the earth that nicely reconciled geology with Genesis... ... In this latter he said that in the remote beginning God supernaturally created all species of living things. The earth had subsequently experienced a succession of violent floods caused by rising sea levels that had devastated most of the animal and plant life on earth. Isolated geographical areas had always been spared and the living species had propagated themselves anew from these areas. ... He explained that God had not provided us with details of the early stages but had simply given the record since the quiet time before the great Flood. The theory allowed six thousand years or so from the beginning of the Bible record to the present time. He believed in the fixity of species, but in mid-life wavered towards the theory of the "chain of being,"

 

[qwerty0]

Buffon系列之六

Sorbonne写给Buffon引起他Recant的信

Sir

We have been informed, by someone amongst us on your behalf, that when you learned that the Natural History, of which you are the author was one of the works chosen by order of the faculty of Theology to be examined and censured because it contained principles and maxims that are not in accordance with those of religion, you declared to him that you did not have the intention of dissociating yourself from it and that you were prepared to satisfy the faculty in regard to each of the articles it found reprehensible in your work; we cannot, Sir, praise you enough for such a Christian resolution, and in order to put you in a position to carry it out, we are sending you the statements taken from you book that seemed to us to be contrary to the beliefs of the Church.

We have the honour of being respectfully, Sir, Your very humble and obedient servants

The Deputies and Syndic of the Faculty of the Theology of Paris, In the house of the Faculty, January 15, 1751

这个链接《Buffon: A Life in Natural History》也是Cat引用博客的主要信息来源。作者认为Sorbonne作为一个调停人的身份出现，与Buffon达成了某种未知的秘密协议 －－ 签署Retraction平息与Jansenists的纷争；同时这本书也写了Jansenists如何对Buffon攻击，就不罗嗦了

Buffon签署的Retraction，包括另一个略有不同的说法：

Buffon was invited by the College in very courteous terms to send in an explanation or rather a recantation of his unorthodox opinions To this he submitted and a general assembly of the Faculty having approved of his Declaration he was required to publish it in his next work The document begins with these words：“I declare that I had no intention to contradict the text of Scripture that I believe most firmly all therein related about the creation both as to order of time and matter of fact and I abandon everything in rny booh respecting the formation of the earth and generally all which may be contrary to the narration of Moses”

 

[qwerty0]

Buffon系列总结

简单事实罗列完了，提供俺的看法－－俺是赞同Cat引用这篇博客作者的结论：Later on, in the late 19th century, the story of Buffon and the Sorbonne was used by Dickinson White in his ‘History of the Conflict between Religion and Science’ ( and as a favourite anecdote in the introductions of biology textbooks) ; although as we have seen。。。Rather than some sinister suppression of science by religion, the activities of Buffon and the religious groups in 18th century France merely displayed the factionalism, squabbling and double dealing we are all familiar with. When history is co-opted for other agendas, these subtleties tend to be lost.

用阿Q体的表达：

1、俺仍然不明白詹森主义者对Buffon究竟产生了多大的压力。从资料看他们做的就是在被政府禁止的刊物上Violently attack Buffon
2、从这段话看，Sorbonne的权力是有限的：“The power to censor（审查） depended on the royal administration, but the theologians did have the power to make representations to the king if the situation demanded it.”，俺确实不明白Sorbonne（巴黎大学）究竟给Buffon造成了多大的压力？
3、对Buffon书的批评远非单单来自于教会，比如伏尔泰对Buffon的批评可能比詹森主义者更加激烈
4、“Buffon contradicts Genesis in every way”，俺确实不清楚当时天主教会在法国有多大的权力，这样的书可以在加上作者的“表态度”后一字不改地出版，要扣上钳制“言论自由”、“束缚思想”等帽子确实需要仔细斟酌－－同时需要放在200多年前的背景下考虑问题
5、Buffon的宗教信仰是未明的，另一篇文章也提到了Buffon denied atheist，詹森主义者与Sorbonne都是以天主教徒的身份在对待Buffon
6、他的学说也是复杂的。比如前面提到他后来提出了符合创世纪的创世学说；关于进化论，他是否认共同起源，认为物种是固定的，同时又被认为是进化论的先驱。－－阿Q的意思是，1751年Buffon在与Sorbonne交锋的第一个回合，还没有看到Buffon会受到怎样处罚前，已经答应Retraction，俺确实对“被迫”程度存疑
7、200多年前在此事中Buffon的书引起的争论，以及受到的审查过程，窃以为完全可以放在今天，拿今天的标准去跟很多国家／政权做比较

 

[cvictor]

这个ｈｏｍｏ起得实在是不咋地。现在在外面说ｈｏｍｏ，大家还会以为是争取人权呢。美国最高法院这几天就在为ｈｏｍｏ辩论得不可开交。

嗯，homo---猴魔，猴模？猴头蘑菇？或者是，哈默，哈吧的兄弟？
看来还是要用个关系图来说明。以后有时间，就整个图形上来。

 

[cvictor]

化石的Dating，这个我也感兴趣。实在没时间，很想搞清楚现在到底实在用循环论证法来定化石的时间还是用放射XX法。

zt，碳14

碳-14
维基百科，自由的百科全书
碳14是碳元素的一种具放射性的同位素，于1940年2月27日有加州大学伯克利分校放射性实验室的马丁·卡门和萨姆·鲁本首被发现。它是透过宇宙射线撞击空气中的氮原子所产生。碳-14原子核有6个质子和8个中子组成。其半衰期约为5,730±40年，衰变方式为β衰变，碳14原子转变为氮-14原子。由于在有机材料中含有碳-14,因此根据它可以确定考古学，地质学和水文地质学样本的大致年代。
在地球上有99%的碳以碳-12的形式存在，有大约1%的碳以碳-13的形式存在，只有兆分之一（0.0000000001%）是碳-14，存在于大气中。
目录 [隐藏]
1 放射性碳定年法
2 存在
2.1 化石燃料中
2.2 人体中
3 参考文献
4 参考资料
5 参看
6 外部链接
[编辑]放射性碳定年法

主条目：放射性碳定年法
由于其半衰期达5,730年，且碳是有机物的元素之一，我们可以根据死亡生物体的体内残余碳14成份来推断它的存在年龄。生物在生存的时候，由于需要呼吸，其体内的碳14含量大致不变，生物死去后会停止呼吸，此时体内的碳14开始减少。由于碳元素在自然界的各个同位素的比例一直都很稳定，人们可透过测量一件古物的碳14含量，来估计它的大概年龄。这种方法称之为放射性碳定年法。。
这个方法估计的大气碳-14含量通过植物年轮（最多可推算到大约10000年前）或者洞穴堆积物（例如钟乳石，最多可推算到大约45000年前）来推算。根据这个推算（更确切的说）对比年轮和洞穴堆积物就可以建立起碳-14的年代变化模型，从而获得其它样本的年龄。
不过，碳14测年法最大测算时间不超过6万年，而且所测得的年代有颇大的误差。而且他的假定-大气中的碳14浓度是不会随时间而改变，也与事实有落差。此外，碳14测定法亦有可能受到火山爆发等自然因素影响，因为在火山喷发时将地下大量气体和物质带到大气中，从而影响碳-14在某区域大气中的含量。所以，若没有其他年代测定方法（如：利用树木的年轮）来检订，单单依赖碳14的测年数据是完全不可靠的。随着现代工业的高速发展和大量化石燃料的应用，古代深藏地下的碳-14被排放到大气中并进入生物循环，放射性碳定年法的结果因此也十分容易受到干扰。

 

[CatLostHerFish]

Well, I guess you can check it out for yourself. It must be quite a job though. :blowzy:

Here is another list for your reference:

天主教神职人员中的科学家们
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_685210990101bnfy.html

下了点功夫。整理了一下我感兴趣的1986年签了支持evolution的Nobel 获奖者在所有Nobel 获奖者中的比例。有时间贴出来。

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution

很想整理一下获奖的Chritian在全世界的分布。重点关注在欧美以外的Chritian的获奖比例。还有惊讶的发现Jewdish真的不是一般的利害，是不是他们真的是上帝的选民？

 

[CatLostHerFish]

zt，碳14

碳-14
维基百科，自由的百科全书
碳14是碳元素的一种具放射性的同位素，于1940年2月27日有加州大学伯克利分校放射性实验室的马丁·卡门和萨姆·鲁本首被发现。它是透过宇宙射线撞击空气中的氮原子所产生。碳-14原子核有6个质子和8个中子组成。其半衰期约为5,730±40年，衰变方式为β衰变，碳14原子转变为氮-14原子。由于在有机材料中含有碳-14,因此根据它可以确定考古学，地质学和水文地质学样本的大致年代。
在地球上有99%的碳以碳-12的形式存在，有大约1%的碳以碳-13的形式存在，只有兆分之一（0.0000000001%）是碳-14，存在于大气中。
目录 [隐藏]
1 放射性碳定年法
2 存在
2.1 化石燃料中
2.2 人体中
3 参考文献
4 参考资料
5 参看
6 外部链接
[编辑]放射性碳定年法

主条目：放射性碳定年法
由于其半衰期达5,730年，且碳是有机物的元素之一，我们可以根据死亡生物体的体内残余碳14成份来推断它的存在年龄。生物在生存的时候，由于需要呼吸，其体内的碳14含量大致不变，生物死去后会停止呼吸，此时体内的碳14开始减少。由于碳元素在自然界的各个同位素的比例一直都很稳定，人们可透过测量一件古物的碳14含量，来估计它的大概年龄。这种方法称之为放射性碳定年法。。
这个方法估计的大气碳-14含量通过植物年轮（最多可推算到大约10000年前）或者洞穴堆积物（例如钟乳石，最多可推算到大约45000年前）来推算。根据这个推算（更确切的说）对比年轮和洞穴堆积物就可以建立起碳-14的年代变化模型，从而获得其它样本的年龄。
不过，碳14测年法最大测算时间不超过6万年，而且所测得的年代有颇大的误差。而且他的假定-大气中的碳14浓度是不会随时间而改变，也与事实有落差。此外，碳14测定法亦有可能受到火山爆发等自然因素影响，因为在火山喷发时将地下大量气体和物质带到大气中，从而影响碳-14在某区域大气中的含量。所以，若没有其他年代测定方法（如：利用树木的年轮）来检订，单单依赖碳14的测年数据是完全不可靠的。随着现代工业的高速发展和大量化石燃料的应用，古代深藏地下的碳-14被排放到大气中并进入生物循环，放射性碳定年法的结果因此也十分容易受到干扰。

在diamond中的碳-14是creationist的favorite topic。好像是1997年，还有creationist拿恐龙化石让科学家检测，结果测出很短的年限，然后被creationist拿这个结果来鼓吹yong earth的。很有意思，cvictor可以看一下。

 

[CatLostHerFish]

嗯，homo---猴魔，猴模？猴头蘑菇？或者是，哈默，哈吧的兄弟？
看来还是要用个关系图来说明。以后有时间，就整个图形上来。

这个在我看的小朋友科普书里有解释，忘了。晚上翻出来看看，然后在这里share。