请支持"夫母移民加快速度"请愿, 签名递交众议院, 如果你爱你父母的话(ZT)

[oread]

I agree with your anlysis. I'd be willing to go with your point no.4 and no.5.

Bear in mind that we are not on the opposite side of the "majority", we too will have to pay the price for an aging population. If there is no win-win, then to find a solution that is the least damaging to the "majority" (hence also easier for "them" to accept) would be a better idea.

support: you brought up a very good topic, what's your take on this?

最初由 ottawa248 发布
加拿大政府当然是不想让老年人来，这很清楚。CANADA BUSINESS的解释权从来都不在移民手里。加拿大政府的意图之所以同SUPPORT的愿望南辕北辙是有民意支持的。这件事的实质是政府削减移民的利益以取悦MAJORITY，政府从MAJORITY的角度出发寻求解决方案。

父母移民的事有几种可能的演变：
1。无条件大幅度放开父母移民 (不现实)
2。维持现状 ( 维持不住，各方面均不愿)
3。严历限制父母移民 (政府意图，可能性大)
4。SPONSOR 在费用上妥协，以金钱换时间 (需要政治代言人，亦有机会，可能迟了点)
5。以人权，平等，MINORITY RIGHT 为诉求，进入司法程序 (旷日持久)

谁对谁错只是一方面，更重要的是让社会认可你是对的。想让人同意你多分一块蛋糕可不是件容易的事。 民主社会里请愿游行示威都行。管不管用可不一定。你可以争辩你有权利。但如果别人说“不对，是你想占便宜”，你又当如何？

SUPPORT：你不会认为只是几个政客在搞搞振吧？ 如果请愿不管用，你的PLAN B是什么？光靠“SHAME ON YOU”是搞不定的

 

[stjoseph]

Very good opinion!

最初由 渐渐 发布
I agree with your anlysis. I'd be willing to go with your point no.4 and no.5.

Bear in mind that we are not on the opposite side of the "majority", we too will have to pay the price for an aging population. If there is no win-win, then to find a solution that is the least damaging to the "majority" (hence also easier for "them" to accept) would be a better idea.

support: you brought up a very good topic, what's your take on this?

 

[stjoseph]

Support!

最初由 渐渐 发布
You are not going to sell this to any Canadian.

Your education is paid by China, so what you really should do is to stay in China, but you CHOSE to come to Canada. Now Canadian government is sponsoring your welfare, but should the Canadian government also sponsor your parents' welfare? I think that's the question many Canadians have a hard time to accept.

To sell your point, you've got to emphasize on the emotional side: it's inhumane and simply wrong to not take care of an aging parent. Don't focus on the hard facts, because that's a losing battle.

 

[dandan]

算我一个

 

[cupid]

deleted.

 

[stjoseph]

可以理解你的心情。不过觉得你讲的漏洞很多，基本上没有什么说服力，只能让那些不打算担保父母移民的人觉得你在强词夺理，想占别人便宜。私下建议老兄少发这些帖子，免得受到更多批评。还是渐渐的帖子比较入情入理。希望加拿大政府采取切实措施，尽快拿出一个妥协方案，让真正迫切需要担保父母移民的子女尽快和家人团聚，以尽子女的赡养义务。

最初由 cupid 发布
我同意我不能向加拿大人兜售我的想法。老年人来和他们的利益向左。他们的爹妈不存在这个问题。加拿大接收移民的实质是想获取，而不是想付出。他们关心的是利益而不是道理，人性本如此，这个大家也都理解。
...

至于楼主的措辞是否委婉恰当，就不必去在意了吧。

 

[oread]

加拿大的移民政策是一个体系。父母移民也是一部分。如果当初加拿大说明白不想让我们的父母来，那我们中的很多人也就不来了。移民是我们和加拿大的一个 DEAL。DEAL的内容就是移民政策。我们父母能够来的权利是PART OF THE DEAL。就冲这一点，加拿大就不能阻挠我们的父母来。但是，加拿大现在通过拖延变相地阻挠我们的父母来，就是言而无信。或者叫欺骗。

If your parents were also part of the deal, why would they have to pay separate fees for immigration? The government of Canada made a deal with YOU, to allow you to come to Canada. I could easily argue that your parents would have to make their own "deal" with Canada.

其次，退一步说，从人权或者人伦的角度上说，（我觉得不单是人道主义）。
加拿大在接收我们这些“熟练劳动力”的同时，自然有义务把我们的负担也接收过来。谁不是上有老下有小的？特别是在这种对年轻人课以重税支持福利系统的国家。我们的父母来了，我们就能减税。你不让我们的父母来，不就是不想让我们赡养父母吗？所以，移民法里始终不可能说不允许父母来的。

You know the only thing I got from this paragraph? Tax deduction. Even though I know that's not what you meant, because I know you personally, but for a complete stranger, your argument is not convincing.

再次，从公平的等价交换的角度。我们是在中国受的教育，本来是该为中国的WAREFARE贡献的。从宏观上看是中国的全体年轻人赡养全体老年人，从微观上看，其实就相当于自己赡养自己的父母。现在我们在替加拿大贡献了，相当于加拿大的WAREFARE从中国的WAREFARE里拿到了钱。那么我们的父母脱离中国的WAREFARE，转到加拿大的WAREFARE，没有理由吗？没错，我们是自愿来加拿大的。但是我看不出“自愿”和我们父母能不能来这个权利之间的关系？（加拿大政府也不能说，由于你们是自愿来贡献的，你们的父母，加拿大可没有说过欢迎让他们来。尽管加拿大政府是这么想的。呵呵。）当然，我们的父母不象白人的父母们，没给加拿大交过税，而加拿大也没给我们教育，也没有出钱把我们拉扯大。这个帐算不清。这就是为什么我们的父母要到10年后才能从政府拿到养老金。（其实不少老年人来了后还在工作，继续给加拿大做贡献）以前，加拿大觉得这个DEAL合理，但是现在他们觉得亏本了。不过不管理由如何， THAT IS THE DEAL。你现在的拖延就是不履行这个DEAL。至于我们该不该留在中国做贡献，这是另一个爱国主义的话题。和我们父母的权利更是不沾边。

Cupid: you don't seem to get it, whatever you are doing now is for yourself: you are paying taxes so that when you get old you'll be able to use those benefits that you've been contributing to, very much like your own RRSP. Your parents are a different story, they have not been contributing to this society like the rest of the aging Canadian population, they could start to when they get here, you could argue that, but their years of contribution would be very limited. How would you feel if your co-worker who 's been working for only 10 years to have the same pay as for example you who's been working for 30 some years?

再次，向来都是人民在养活政府，不是政府在养活人民。
是加拿大政府在向我们索取去SPONSORING WELFARE，还是我们在向加拿大的WELFARE索取？加拿大事实上是从移民身上获得了好处。而我们交的税里，理所当然有一部分是应该被用在赡养我们的父母上的。所以我更看不出加拿大不想把移民的父母纳入WAREFARE系统的理由。

Finally you and I agree on something. WE (by WE I mean all tax-paying individuals) are the ones sponsoring our parents, and WE are the ones who would face the unfortunate depletion and degradation of our welfare system if nothing changes. Are you not worried that when you get old, there would be no more funds available to support your own living? What about your children and their children?

所以，父母来的权利，是每个移民该享有的权利。
我不觉得人道主义是我们的唯一理由。

Let me ask you one very simple question that yh_abc already asked: would you still sponsor your parents to come to Canada even if there is no free universal health care? I know you'd say yes you would, but could you also afford their medical expenses? Now are you still this eager to sponsor them? Now would you think twice before you send in that application?

"What's in it for me?"

 

[support]

最初由 渐渐 发布
I agree with your anlysis. I'd be willing to go with your point no.4 and no.5.

Bear in mind that we are not on the opposite side of the "majority", we too will have to pay the price for an aging population. If there is no win-win, then to find a solution that is the least damaging to the "majority" (hence also easier for "them" to accept) would be a better idea.

support: you brought up a very good topic, what's your take on this?

我的观点很简单。我们要供养我们的父母。这是上天自我们来到这个世界的第一天就赐与我们的权利和义务。

作为移民，这是我们与生俱来的权利和义务，是任何人无权以任何方式任何理由加以剥夺的基本人权。

作为公民，这是我们宣誓效忠的宪法权。如果加拿大政府以我们是后来者而限制我们的宪法权，那它最好公开宣布我们所宣誓效忠的国家是一个种族歧视的国家。


我还要感谢所有参加讨论的朋友。请象所有来自Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Windsor, Regina, 和来自REUNIT WITH OUR PARENTS的朋友们一样行动起来。为了我们的父母，为了我们自己，请留下您的宝贵支持。


为PETITON TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS征集签名

各位朋友们：

加拿大政府自从2003年以来，逐年减少家庭团聚类移民中父母/祖父母类别的名额。移民部的资料显示，以父母/祖父母类别接纳的移民在2003年为19376人，2004年为10233人，2005年仅为5500/6800人。 如果这种趋势不加以改变的话，目前递交的父母/祖父母类别家庭团聚移民的申请将有可能被拖延15 至 18 年之久。由于我们父母/祖父母年龄的关系，这意味着绝大部分的申请人将在漫长的等待中离开我们并使我们永远丧失赡养父母的权利。

为了促请加拿大政府及全社会认识到这一事实，PETITION SPONSORSHIP FORUM的成员正在全加拿大范围进行联名请愿活动。

为了方便广大关心父母担保移民这一问题的朋友参加这个活动，我们已在48# Centrepoint Drive. 王淑洁中医师诊所内设立了一个签名点。请大家在百忙之中为我们的父母留下您的支持。

感谢淑洁中医师对我们的大力支持。


请注意: 所有年满18岁，有合法的加拿大身份(移民/公民)并同意我们的观点的朋友(包括您的配偶，家人）都可以参加签名。

如果您有任何的疑问，可与sponsor20041224@yahoo.com 联系

签名点地址及地图如下：
48 Centrepoint Drive
Npean, Ontario
tel: (613)224-3300
office hour
Mon -- Friday 9:00am -- 17:00 pm
Sat 9:00 -- 14::00 pm

由于王淑洁中医师还另有诊所需要照顾，故以上办公时间为大致时间，去签名前请务必打电话确认时间。

 

[support]

为PETITON TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS征集签名

各位朋友们：

加拿大政府自从2003年以来，逐年减少家庭团聚类移民中父母/祖父母类别的名额。移民部的资料显示，以父母/祖父母类别接纳的移民在2003年为19376人，2004年为10233人，2005年仅为5500/6800人。 如果这种趋势不加以改变的话，目前递交的父母/祖父母类别家庭团聚移民的申请将有可能被拖延15 至 18 年之久。由于我们父母/祖父母年龄的关系，这意味着绝大部分的申请人将在漫长的等待中离开我们并使我们永远丧失赡养父母的权利。

为了促请加拿大政府及全社会认识到这一事实，PETITION SPONSORSHIP FORUM的成员正在全加拿大范围进行联名请愿活动。

为了方便广大关心父母担保移民这一问题的朋友参加这个活动，我们已在48# Centrepoint Drive. 王淑洁中医师诊所内设立了一个签名点。请大家在百忙之中为我们的父母留下您的支持。

感谢淑洁中医师对我们的大力支持。


请注意: 所有年满18岁，有合法的加拿大身份(移民/公民)并同意我们的观点的朋友(包括您的配偶，家人）都可以参加签名。

如果您有任何的疑问，可与sponsor20041224@yahoo.com 联系

签名点地址及地图如下：
48 Centrepoint Drive
Npean, Ontario
tel: (613)224-3300
office hour
Mon -- Friday 9:00am -- 17:00 pm
Sat 9:00 -- 14::00 pm

由于王淑洁中医师还另有诊所需要照顾，故以上办公时间为大致时间，去签名前请务必打电话确认时间。

 

[support]

a parents point of view (ZT)

最初由 support 发布
为PETITON TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS征集签名

-----Original Message-----
From: Jenia Demidov [mailto:jenia20@hotmail.com]
Sent: January 24, 2005 7:17 AM
To: mmclarke50@btinternet.com
Subject: Re:a parents point of view


Mary, I'm forwarding your letter to every member of our Forum.

Thank you,

Jenia

>From: "Mary Clarke" <mmclarke50@btinternet.com>

>Reply-To: <mmclarke50@btinternet.com>
>To: "'Jenia Demidov'" <jenia20@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re:a parents point of view
>Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:59:28 -0000
>
>Dear Jenia and the group
>I am a widow living in Scotland. I lost my husband to cancer in 2003, after
>which my son sponsored me (Sept. 2003) to join him and his wife in Canada.
>At that time it was going to take 6-8 months to process applications.
>I have a daughter married in America but she has not applied for her
>citizenship yet so can not sponsor me to be with her. It seemed the right
>move for my son to have me with him as I could visit with both of them.
>I have to concur with Kim's letter about the older people being independent.
>I own my own house and will get a pension when I retire. So will not be a
>burden on either the state or my family. At the moment I am still of
>working age and I am trained as a bookkeeper (55 years young).
>It is heartbreaking for me to have been so near to moving then to find that
>as a parent it could still be so far off.
>I think that you and your group are doing a great job and I for one fully
>support what you are doing. I only wish I could do more to help.
>With regard to lawsuits, when you immigrated to Canada the Canadian
>Government policy was and still is, to re-unite families. This policy they
>have now is against their basic constitution and may be against your human
>rights.
>Incidentally Jenia, you're English and grammar has improved 100% since you
>have taken up the cause. Well done.
>I hope you do not mind me saying this.
>Mary
>

 

[oread]

I have a hard time understanding your arguments. Sure it's your obligation to take care of YOUR parents, but why should "I" also sponsor your parents?

Canadian consititution protects Canadians, your parents are not Canadians, it's as simple as that.

I have a hard time understanding this "entitlement" philosophy. Why do you think you are entitled to use any of the social benefits? What have you done to contribute to any of the social benefits? OK, you paid taxes, but that only covers you, not your parents, and not even your adult children. Where did this "entitlement" come from?

"WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?"

最初由 support 发布
我的观点很简单。我们要供养我们的父母。这是上天自我们来到这个世界的第一天就赐与我们的权利和义务。

作为移民，这是我们与生俱来的权利和义务，是任何人无权以任何方式任何理由加以剥夺的基本人权。

作为公民，这是我们宣誓效忠的宪法权。如果加拿大政府以我们是后来者而限制我们的宪法权，那它最好公开宣布我们所宣誓效忠的国家是一个种族歧视的国家。

 

[support]

最初由 渐渐 发布
I have a hard time understanding your arguments. Sure it's your obligation to take care of YOUR parents, but why should "I" also sponsor your parents?

Canadian consititution protects Canadians, your parents are not Canadians, it's as simple as that.

I have a hard time understanding this "entitlement" philosophy. Why do you think you are entitled to use any of the social benefits? What have you done to contribute to any of the social benefits? OK, you paid taxes, but that only covers you, not your parents, and not even your adult children. Where did this "entitlement" come from?

"WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?"

Asked:
Why should I sponsor you parents?

Answer:
1. We are not asking you sponsor our parents. We are the people to sponsor them.

2. If you are a Foreign-born residents, you will have the same problem the sooner or later.


Asked:
Canadian consititution protects Canadians, your parents are not Canadians, it's as simple as that.

Answer:
Yes, our parents are not Canadians, but we are or we will. Shall I ask my constitution right based on this point?

Asked:
Why do you think you are entitled to use any of the social benefits?

Answer:
1. Once more, do you think some of Canadians are not entitled of any of social benefits? Was that written in the Constitution?

2. Why the refugees are entitled ? Did they make any penny to Canada?


Asked:
What have you done to contribute to any of the social benefits?

Answer:
Check you tax return and payroll statement.

Asked:
OK, you paid taxes, but that only covers you, not your parents, and not even your adult children.

Answer:
Who tell you this? Can I leave it in my own pocket and only pay the benefits for myseelf?

 

[cupid]

原来这里是两派论战的地方，我还以为是一帮志同道合的人在一起发发牢骚呢。没仔细看前面的帖子，特别是英语的帖子。

说话说错地方了，呵呵。

我刚刚也给我们区的MP发了EMAIL。
管他有没有用。我为我的父母做了我所能做的一切了。哪怕他们最终来不了。

 

[stjoseph]

渐渐好象是支持父母团聚移民的.不过有些同胞,包括support在内发的贴子显得没道理,渐渐同志指出了错误.所以现在变成了支持父母移民的人在互相辩论.

最初由 cupid 发布
原来这里是两派论战的地方，我还以为是一帮志同道合的人在一起发发牢骚呢。没仔细看前面的帖子，特别是英语的帖子。

说话说错地方了，呵呵。

我刚刚也给我们区的MP发了EMAIL。
管他有没有用。我为我的父母做了我所能做的一切了。哪怕他们最终来不了。

 

[tigerwoods]

有些人啊,还真把自己看成了纳税大户,好象是你们养着别人似的.我给加拿大交的税可不比你们少,也不敢这样想啊,嘿嘿.......

人家申请父母移民,全加拿大一年总共也才几百个华人老人被批准团聚移民,还把你们给气成这样,更有个别的居然还去发信去阻止这些家庭团聚的诉求.我算是服了你们'宽广'的胸怀.

很多人老人来并没有象你们这些'纳税人'说得那样占用社会资源.华人的生活中家庭是很重要的因素.尤其是那些在中国没有亲属的老人.把老人接过来,当老人生病时,子女同样要花很多时间和精力去照看.我实在看不出这些人占了多大的便宜能使你们能从税,医疗,占便宜等出来发挥展开你们'专业般'的逻辑思维能力,俨然你们是移民官似的.

看得出,你们现在事业有成,有的人甚至多年蒙受加拿大教育和培养之恩,你们有没有想过,你们当时拿BURSARY和各种补贴时,或你们父母留学当访问学者后被加拿大留下时,是否也用了很多纳税人的钱?加拿大当初批准你或你们的父母移民的时候,也一样给予你们各种移民的方便? 你们现在发达了,就有理由去批评加拿大当初给了你们同样关怀的人道精神吗?

人生在世,多做些成人之美的事情,能帮人处且帮人,能顺水时且推舟,即使不能或不愿去推,也没有必要去阻止人家.

你们也许想必事业有成,收入颇高.现在可以用这样或那样的居高临下的口气去教训别人,你们也有老的时候,你们也有被子女想念的时候,这里的冬天很长很难熬,今天你们也许在办公室上班发贴,明天说不准,你们也有需要别人的理解/同情/帮助的时候....这很难说,确实很难说,人生的路长着呢.......

最后祝愿那些申请父母移民的人成功,我佛慈悲,定能保佑你们.......