好笑的基督教

[qwerty0]

为什么不可信？因为简单的常识：

1、因为Gould写的“为什么进化论是事实”的文章，还有一些别的进化论证据文章，根本没有提前面讲的例子中的大部分
2、同一个原因，如果那些例子被“进化论”界广泛接受，这些都是相当有杀伤力的证据，象美国国家科学院的宣传小册子就不用花那么多口舌在争议很大的化石纪录上
3、显然人类对基因的了解还非常粗浅
4、进化论远非一个单纯科学问题

5、战斗在分子生物最前沿的Craig Venter给俺的信心。但是话说回来，就像前面俺讲的，可能事情没有原来想的简单。anyway，学习了再说，否则再一次多言必失

 

[CatLostHerFish]

正在质疑当中。就像前面Craig Venter视频中那个NASA科学家非常强调："It's lot way too much if there are TWO form of life in the earth", 事实就是这样。如果有两种Life form，根本不可能解释地球生物之间的相似性

What does that mean?

将ID跟Evolution结合起来－－即生命由造物主创造，但是他选择“Evolution”作为工具，只有少数有宗教信仰的科学家赞成，比如Francis Collins，Henry Gee等

That's a free choice.

但是科学是讲究证据的，不是合理不合理的问题，慢慢看吧

Science comes from theory, then evidence. At least we need to use our logic to exame if the theory is possible or not, if so, it worth furthur look, or who spend time on it?

没看过，在进化论这个问题上，俺不采纳任何科普书的材料作为证据。俺提三点：1、这些科普的知识从哪里来？对争议这么大的话题，俺为什么不去看原始的材料？

I asked KePu, I give you a KePu book, don't understand what is the logic.
You said you are interesed in what and how the evolution is told to kids, I send you the book, you don't even want to take a look, don't understand.
You can see what evidences the book used. Which will inspire you, and you can check the true/false of the book.

2、书里怎么讲小鸟、陆生动物的“进化”，是否真实反映科学家的争议？

You can take a look, it is really interesting.
I am not convienced by the one about why dinasour get the wing, it is still a mystery for me.

3、书里“进化”宏观上持什么态度？Gradualism，or 间断平衡？是否反映科学家的争议？

Didn't mention that.
The book mentioned about evolution is still controversial in science community.
The book mentioned the conflict between creationist and scientest.
The book mentioned if you ask a what is species, you will be regret about that. That part is queit interesting, you should take a look, the kids know better about species than us if they read this book.

很简单，一本给小朋友读的科普书不可能反映这么多争议！但是不反映这些争议，作者必须选择站队，任何站队都是对“进化论”科学界的曲解

The book mentioned about evolution is still controversial in science community.
Isn't it important? Can you write a book which can list all the 争议? If you do that in kids tone, I believe some people will be interested in buy it.

很明显，里面很多例子都是微进化的范畴，是不是有些是“宏进化”的例子？看过后再说。现在正在慢慢学习HIV／SIV的例子。这些例子中哪个你认为最可信（找不到英文论文、参考资料的例子俺不接纳），可以指出来。俺重新Prioritize

You don't even have clear line between micro and macro, how did you get this conclusion?
I am reading, very slowly.I am interested in the fishes which mentioned in the book now, I need to verify them first, which is interesting.

为什么不可信？因为简单的常识
1、因为Gould写的“为什么进化论是事实”的文章，还有一些别的进化论证据文章，根本没有提前面讲的例子中的大部分

You mean the bird? Let's get the macro thing done first, it is more important than the bird at our understanding stage.

2、同一个原因，如果那些例子被“进化论”界广泛接受，这些都是相当有杀伤力的证据，象美国国家科学院的宣传小册子就不用花那么多口舌在争议很大的化石纪录上

what kind of 宣传小册子? May I take a look?

3、显然人类对基因的了解还非常粗浅

Yes. No one deny that. Scientist spent 20 years to draw the human DNA.
But we alreally get benefit(damage...) from that.
Sicence doesn't have terminal point, we never get the final answer, but during this proccess, we learned and we used them to improve(agan or damage) our life.
I just ordered one book about the evolution history, which can give me some idea about what evolution bring to us and the controversy happened in the science community, also , how the scientist with religion deal with the relatoinship between religion and sicence.

4、进化论远非一个单纯科学问题

What does this mean?

事实上，刚刚看了一点资料，俺就意识到了俺前面的求科普给自己挖了一个坑，因为Species（物种）的定义是非常模糊的，就如＃1021的再求科普

When I read the book I told you, I thought, If I take a look at the book first, I will save a lot of time to finally realize how difficult it is to define the species.
And you can think as a scientist, if it is you, how to define the species.
系统发生学研究的最大困难是，系统发生学的进化过程是不能被直接通过观察和实验被证实的。所以各个方面的证据都要被综合起来分析。由于对这些证据的侧重不同，会经常造成有多个不同的演化树版本，例如原口类动物的几个门究竟是归到蜕皮动物（来自遗传学方面的证据）还是触手动物（形态学方面的证据）。

That's why scientist said evolution tree is some simple way to demostrate the evolution, evolution is far more complex that that, some scientist propose to use net to draw the evolution "tree".

所以，科学家并不知道生物“生殖隔离”的真正原因在哪里，所以现在的物种分类某种意义上讲，是在未知情况下的Speculation，作为质疑者也同样不知道物种之间的Barrier在哪里，后面这会是一个麻烦

We can focus on the cat tree to see what we think is possible and what is impossible. No matter what evidence, we have to eventually use our brian to think about it, I'd like to see what qwerty0 thought about the cat tree

 

[CatLostHerFish]

5、战斗在分子生物最前沿的Craig Venter给俺的信心。但是话说回来，就像前面俺讲的，可能事情没有原来想的简单。anyway，学习了再说，否则再一次多言必失

Craig Venter? Maybe I need to take a look. An other homework. Long list to go.

It is good to hear that you open your mind again.

多言必失, Hmmm. It is 偷换概念. You did what you think is not good. Which is because you have some bias which may comes from the creationist inference.

By the way, I keep say creationist , not Christian, because they are different.

 

[CatLostHerFish]

多言必失, Hmmm. It is 偷换概念. You did what you think is not good. Which is because you have some bias which may comes from the creationist inference.

The lesson for you is, when you see scientist do same thing, you shouldn't defend on science just because they did the bad things. Then come to the conclusion that they are bad guys, I don't want to believe science anymore. It is kind of human nature. Creationist did same thing either, you know it.

 

[CatLostHerFish]

creationist造物者:

[生命创世纪]
DNA的设计
造物者想出一个好东西，DNA，这个东西好，能伸能缩，能自我复制，能学习。别的妙处可能我们/我还没有发现。

God use the DNA to make all forms of the species which including all extinct species and all existing species.
When God build these species, God need to calulate very carefully:
1. every species need to be able to keep alive in the the env he put it in
2. for each species, he need to prepare enough food for them, which is another species
So he have to calculate the whole 食物链, then decide how many bings is needed for each species
3. Then God put the whole 食物链 on earth.

My question to God, why don't you just do what evolution can do? The DNA can do it all by itself, isn't it?
God may answer me, there is a limit in DNA, which limit species split to different branch.

[人的诞生]
人是食物链顶端，所以两个吧

My question which will deffend some people here, sorry for that.

因为只有两个人，下一代必然存在严重的近亲结婚和乱伦,how can all of them are healty? they have different DNA from what we have now?


[地球灾难]
Species will extinct one by one, and no new species to replace them. So at last, earth will lost all the species so earth will come back to a dead star again.
Then God! Please restart the PC!

[地球不断变化]
Species can adapt the env very well, but no matter how it adapt to the env, it stay as same species.

[食物链]
God calculated that at the begining, it will be fine since then. But, wait, Noah's oak makes this very difficult.
All current species are on the boat. They have to stop eating during the whole 大洪水, only God can do that.
Then the 大洪水 is gone and they are free to go again. But wait, Noah's oak didn't calculate the 食物链, one species only one pair. So they still can't awake after that.
They have to await base on the order of 食物链, or some of them will be extinct immediately.
Some one can do a calculate about how long does it take to recover the 食物链 so we know which species wake up at what time?
During the whole time, God has to be here, which is not nature can do.

[地球毁灭]
这个没办法了。造物者，快来重启机器了!

So, there are two major disadvantage of this design. How to teach it to the kids? It is a challenge.

I stopped look at evolution after I realize the story in Bible is treated by some Christian as kind of 寓言, so you can't read it as what it is, there is a large space between it and the real thing. And God will fill all the place which you got something you can't explain.

If you tell above story to kids, they will be scared because the earth will be more and more quiet. It will scary them away. There must be something wrong. Why all species has to appear at same time and couldn't build new things out? Did Bible itself said that? Or creationist said so so you believe what they said?

 

[qwerty0]

what kind of 宣传小册子? May I take a look?

前面引用多次的2008年美国国家科学院写的小册子，还有NCSE的文章，参见 ＃876, ＃877, ＃982, ＃983, ＃998, ＃1010,

What does this mean?

进化论绝对不是一个单独在学术范畴内的问题，从前面多次讲到的1986年72名诺奖得主在内的科学界支持进化论的信、2005年38名诺奖得主的信、2008年美国国家科学院的小册子、中学生物甚至大学生物教材，都是将进化论当成一个“不可置疑”的真理

＃876所说，科学家们在进行进化论研究时，至少在正式刊物发表的文章，都表现出科学家们求实的态度，对各种生物的“进化”关系是“suggesting”的态度。这是从科学的角度看进化论

简单讲，进化论被Marketing成的样子，并不反映科学界的真正状态；这种扭曲就是因为进化论被非科学因素干扰了

俺正在做的事情就是，找找进化论科学的真正状态－－Hypotheses

在这里也无须讨论科学的相对性、可谬性。。。。什么的，这些都什么争议；需要讨论的是，“进化论”是不是遵循这种“科学的方法”？

We can focus on the cat tree to see what we think is possible and what is impossible. No matter what evidence, we have to eventually use our brian to think about it, I'd like to see what qwerty0 thought about the cat tree

Cat tree, 是什么？能不能提供具体的链接？俺需要一个具体的靶子

 

[cvictor]

5、战斗在分子生物最前沿的Craig Venter给俺的信心。但是话说回来，就像前面俺讲的，可能事情没有原来想的简单。anyway，学习了再说，否则再一次多言必失

看了Craig Venter的'生命细胞'的创造，有点象植物的嫁接，可能是在细胞级别的。
这个研究成果，却引起了一个害怕，就是谁创造了生命？是'智能设计'，还是外星人？
这个研究没有涉及到'不同类细胞'的联系。

 

[cvictor]

前面引用多次的2008年美国国家科学院写的小册子，还有NCSE的文章，参见 ＃876, ＃877, ＃982, ＃983, ＃998, ＃1010,



进化论绝对不是一个单独在学术范畴内的问题，从前面多次讲到的1986年72名诺奖得主在内的科学界支持进化论的信、2005年38名诺奖得主的信、2008年美国国家科学院的小册子、中学生物甚至大学生物教材，都是将进化论当成一个“不可置疑”的真理

＃876所说，科学家们在进行进化论研究时，至少在正式刊物发表的文章，都表现出科学家们求实的态度，对各种生物的“进化”关系是“suggesting”的态度。这是从科学的角度看进化论

简单讲，进化论被Marketing成的样子，并不反映科学界的真正状态；这种扭曲就是因为进化论被非科学因素干扰了

俺正在做的事情就是，找找进化论科学的真正状态－－Hypotheses

在这里也无须讨论科学的相对性、可谬性。。。。什么的，这些都什么争议；需要讨论的是，“进化论”是不是遵循这种“科学的方法”？

Cat tree, 是什么？能不能提供具体的链接？俺需要一个具体的靶子

'suggesting'的态度是正确的啊。例如，众所周知的，狼是狗的祖先。但是，拿以前的任何一个狼的化石骨头，都只能说（suggesting），它可能是狗的直接祖先。
拿化石去研究'进化论'，'可能性'说的具体的个体，而'必然性'是基于大的时间尺度的物种变异的群体。是一般与特殊的关系。
进化论被非科学因素干扰了，大家都知道这个吼叫声最高的'非科学因素'是谁。喔，86年的72位和05年的38位诺奖得主，他们都是偏见？可他们大多是来自于宗教国家啊。如果是来自中国科学家的声明，一句话，'无神论者的国家'，就叫你哑口无言。
唉，这么多的诺奖得主啊，羡煞死人哪。写信支持进化论有啥好处嘛？到中国去吧，一定把你们象供菩萨一样，看看那老杨头。

 

[CatLostHerFish]

3、书里“进化”宏观上持什么态度？

书上没有说macroevolution是什么。但是介绍了菜花和卷心菜。你吃菜花和卷心菜的时候有想，会想到它们有关系吗？菜花来自卷心菜。是农民培育出来的。

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_descent

这个算不算在实验室控制下的超越种的macroevolution的证据了？

书里还介绍了疟原虫为了逃过人类的药物，不停的变种，人类不得不不停的找新的药的例子。这个算不算自然界在人的影响下，出现macroevolution的证据了？

 

[qwerty0]

书上没有说macroevolution是什么。但是介绍了菜花和卷心菜。你吃菜花和卷心菜的时候有想，会想到它们有关系吗？菜花来自卷心菜。是农民培育出来的。

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_descent

这个算不算在实验室控制下的超越种的macroevolution的证据了？

书里还介绍了疟原虫为了逃过人类的药物，不停的变种，人类不得不不停的找新的药的例子。这个算不算自然界在人的影响下，出现macroevolution的证据了？

菜花指的是这个？
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauliflower，“The first reliable reference to cauliflower is found in the writings of the Arab Muslim scientists Ibn al-'Awwam and Ibn al-Baitar, in the 12th and 13th centuries”，没有讲是从卷心菜来的

一个一个来，俺也不喜欢在微生物、动物、植物之间大范围跳来跳去。俺昨天说了，正在看HIV／SIV，你昨天说下一个看Cat tree，这个题目对俺太大了，俺只能看一个具体的小例子。这样吧，HIV／SIV看完，俺接着弄疟原虫，不过阿Q比较笨，很慢的

 

[CatLostHerFish]

我说过，因为创世纪里的一天能解释为某臆断时间，上方舟的动物种类可以解释为只是举了些例子，跟实际不一样，而且其中很多自然界不可能部分可以用上帝的万能来弥补，我认为科学是不可能证伪创世纪的。但是进化论好象确实是对它产生了挑战，creationist和进化论完全不能融合的地方，就是物种不变和物种变化这一点。
从科学家确定地下埋着很多现在没有的物种的化石，有些化石跟现在动物有点象，但是又不一样，而里面没有现代人的化石看到开始，物种不变论就必然被受到质疑。如果物种不变，而物种灭绝已经证明是个事实，那我们该担心什么时候物种全部消失了，但是从来没有人用各种方法预测过物种什么时候会全部灭绝，为什么？因为事实是，新的物种在不停的产生，没啥可担心的（如果人能悠着点的话）。
而地下从来没有挖出过现代人的化石，也让人奇怪，人怎么就能一直避开所有的灾难？从我们现实生活中的体验来看，我们根本没有能力。避过这些灾难。能想到的解释是，古代的人的样子跟我们现在不一样。

 

[qwerty0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_...t#Wild_cabbage

最简单的方法，直接从你的这个Wiki网页检查一下，所有Wild cabbage的后代: cabbage, kale, broccoli, cauliflower, kohlrabi and Brussels sprouts，与Wild cabbage一样，都是在Brassica oleracea 这个Species（种）下面－－因为它们之间本来就不存在“生殖隔离”，根据阿Q已经承认不严格的定义（宏进化－－species种以上的“进化”），可以简单地将这个例子排除在Macroevolution的证据以外

这个网页列出的第二个例子：“The diversity of domesticated dogs is an example of the power of artificial selection. All breeds share common ancestry, having descended from wolves.”，同样简单查找一下Wiki：

Dog和Wolf都是属于相同的“Species（种）：C.lupus”



第三个例子“Darwin's finches”，更是看都不用看，在讲Finch家庭内部的故事

 

[CatLostHerFish]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_...t#Wild_cabbage

最简单的方法，直接从你的这个Wiki网页检查一下，所有Wild cabbage的后代: cabbage, kale, broccoli, cauliflower, kohlrabi and Brussels sprouts，与Wild cabbage一样，都是在Brassica oleracea 这个Species（种）下面－－因为它们之间本来就不存在“生殖隔离”，根据阿Q已经承认不严格的定义（宏进化－－species种以上的“进化”），可以简单地将这个例子排除在Macroevolution的证据以外

浏览附件314019

You are right, 继续找.

 

[CatLostHerFish]

看看这个。

http://worldview3.50webs.com/parttrueevol.html

这是一个creationist的网站，上面承认有以生殖分离为标准的新品种的证据，the herring gull。
然后，该网站开始说了，这个还是不是macro evolution，因为他们还是属于同一个gene－pool。偷换概念？

However, concerning macro-evolution, no one has ever been able to provide clear empirical evidence that a new plant or animal species has ever originated as a result of the gradual accumulation of DNA through mutations (acted on by natural selection), giving the new species new genetic information contained in a net increase in the amount of functional genetic material (DNA), which specifies and produces new beneficial type(s) of structure(s) and function(s) which are totally lacking in the ancestral species, and which are not deleterious to the life-functions of the new species. --Even in the case of something like bacteria which are able to develop resistance to antibiotics, or like viruses which are able to "mutate" their structures in order to evade immune-defenses, --those changes are made repeatedly by the bacteria and viruses when circumstances call for it, and thus, such "mutation" may not actually be mutation of any helpful significance, but a capacity already resident in the variation of those gene-pools.

 

[qwerty0]

看看这个。

http://worldview3.50webs.com/parttrueevol.html

这是一个creationist的网站，上面承认有以生殖分离为标准的新品种的证据，the herring gull。
然后，该网站开始说了，这个还是不是macro evolution，因为他们还是属于同一个gene－pool。偷换概念？

所以俺说不要去看那些“伪科学”的creationist的文章 俺个人不认同这篇文章的绝大多数观点。

银鸽Herring Gull和Lesser Black-backed Gull涉及到的环物种 Ring Species是进化论者提出的产生新物种的途径之一，a kind of spatial evolution：

wiki：“Ring species provide important evidence of evolution in that they illustrate what happens over time as populations genetically diverge... ... if enough of the connecting populations within the ring perish to sever the breeding connection, the ring species' distal populations will be recognized as two distinct species."

在银鸽的例子中：

Herring gulls will breed with the gulls of Iceland, they are the same species. Icelandic gulls will breed with those of Greenland, the Greenland gulls will breed with the gulls of the eastern USA and Canada. The eastern American gulls will breed with the western American gulls. The western American gulls with those of Siberia and eastern Asia. The eastern Asiatic gulls with western Asian gulls which in turn will breed with eastern European gulls until we get back to western Europe. But the gull is now the Lesser black-backed gull. It is a different species from the herring gull and although they live near each other they never interbreed

这么多种Gull的主要差别在于大小和颜色，不同的机构对Gull这个复杂的环中涉及的Gulls有很多种不同的分类，但是处在这个环的两端的Herring Gull和Lesser Black-backed Gull都被认为是生殖隔离，处在不同的Species中, Lesser Black-backed Gull被认为是“进化“出来的新物种

处在这个interbreeding的环中的起点：European Herring Gull

interbreeding的环的终点：Lesser Black-backed Gull，被传统认为因为“spatial evolution”形成的不能与Herring Gull交配的新物种