总结，这次关于海啸捐款引发的争论，抛砖引玉

[光辉岁月]

最初由 北京痞子 发布
看来，不但家丑不可外扬，连内扬都得悠着点。同样是屎，别人泼上身的奇臭无比，自己抹上身的就变成胭脂膏了。

你的辩论方法有问题，你驳斥的东西是别人没说过的。就象拿着一把破枪，对着虚空乱刺一样。我什么时候说“屎”变成“胭脂膏”了？我又什么时候说“自己抹上身”了？是的，有一些人就爱抹一些东西在中国人身上，然后大声嚷嚷，说，“快来看哪，中国人身上有屎！”，岂不知，屎是他自己抹的，更可悲的是，他也是中国人！

你的逻辑是(如果不对，请纠正)，印尼杀中国人，和广西吃人是一样的？我想说的是，这两者有本质上的不同。一个是因为愚昧和残忍，把他人看作猎物和野兽。另一个是种族上的蔑视和仇恨。后者的矛头直指全体中国人，也包括你。我不想掀起仇恨，但是如果对方因为一时得逞而洋洋自得，我必须用我的力量阻止他再次冒犯。

 

[北京痞子]

转贴一篇旧文，看看咱们这个“最优秀的民族”是何等的食欲旺盛--按照某些人的观点，是何等的进化和文明。

吃　人　的　文　化

・方舟子・

　　中文网上谈吃，越吃越起劲，从吃蕹菜吃到了人肉，有人贴了篇周老二的吃
人文章作大家指导，却要贴上“儿童不宜”的标签。这网上的儿童大概没几个，
要有也不必怕他们看到，还不如贴上“贵族不宜”的标签，免污某些人的贵眼。

　　我们这个民族号称是吃的民族，四条腿的板凳大概是不吃的，但两条腿的人
却不妨不时吃吃，吃人的历史源远流长，吃人的艺术博大精深。小孩子们自小耳
闻目濡，哪个不知道人肉能吃，该吃，而且好吃？“壮志饥餐胡虏肉，笑谈渴饮
匈奴血”，是在吃人吧？而且吃得何等崇高，何等心旷神怡！而那是小学生也背
得滚瓜烂熟的。当年四、五岁的周海婴问鲁爷人肉能不能吃，鲁爷就不是“儿童
不宜”，而是坦然相告：“能吃，可能很好吃，不过最好别吃。”

　　最好别吃，一有天灾人祸还是吃的。别的民族，一遇饥荒，大抵是牺牲老人
，尽力保护儿童。相沿成习，有象日本电影《□〔木酋〕山节考》所说的那样，
老人到一定年龄就到山上饿死的；也有象爱斯基摩的某些部落，孙子一出世，祖
父母便离家自杀，全都是为了省下粮食来给最小的一代。而我们这个民族，遇到
大饥荒，饥饿的眼睛盯着的却是无助的子女。不忍心吃吧，便发明了“易子而食
”这样的妙计。翻翻《资治通鉴》，过几页就来一次某地“大饥”、“析骨为炊
，易子而食”，长年累月，还不吃出经验，吃出艺术来？

　　把人叫作“两脚羊”，并非宋人的发明。唐末黄巢打入长安，困守之时米比
金贵，他的部下――起义军们――便到长安城外抓人来吃，美其名曰“抓两脚羊
”。中国历史上最大规模的吃人运动大概发生在明末，夸张点说是几乎无人不吃
人。那可是千年不遇的全国性的大饥荒，能吃的都吃光了，只剩下了人还可一吃
，于是便有了公开的人肉市场――不是卖人肉，而是活生生的人，称之为“菜人
”。你看中了哪个菜人，交点钱，便领着回家，洗涮一番便象杀猪一样杀了吃了
。杀猪还要五花大绑，杀起来还要嗷嗷大叫，而杀起菜人来却要省事多了，反正
菜人们已知道自己是要被吃的，也应该被吃的，反抗无用也不道德，不如视死如
归、引颈就戮。所谓的菜人，我想无非也是谁家的孩子，细皮嫩肉的小姑娘大概
可以卖个好价钱吧。拿了买主的钱的父母，无非也是去买别人家的菜人充饥，所
以这也是“易子而食”，只不过已不是物物交换，而是有了货币流通了，社会毕
竟进步了。

　　然而这还没完。我们一直吃到了“三年困难时期”，甘肃公开地吃人，和全
国各地偷偷地吃人，一直吃到了文化大革命广西的为革命而吃人。以后有了机会
，我们还是要吃人的，我想。

1995.2.13.

 

[北京痞子]

你可别给bigcooler帮倒忙。人家可说了，中国人是“世界上最优秀的民族”。世界上最优秀的民族难道还能是愚昧和残忍的？你这不是给人家添堵么。

所以，诸位爱国小将们，你们的正确做法是：

1. 证明“易子而食”之类的说法是古人胡说八道，从来没发生过。中国人从来没吃过人。“两脚羊”是胡说八道，“菜人”是胡说八道，《资治通鉴》胡说八道，鲁迅胡说八道，郑义胡说八道……一切关于中国人吃人的言论统统胡说八道――我们身上没屎。

2. 或者，你们论证吃人不是什么大不了的恶行，是我们的伟大传统。你们知道当年胡耀邦派人调查广西吃人事件时，武宣党委是怎么表态的？他们说，武宣“自古以来就有吃人的传统”。看见了吧？吃人可是个传统。就像方肘子说的那样，我们不但要吃人，还要吃出经验，吃出艺术。――我们身上黄灿灿的东西不是屎，是胭脂膏。

只有这样，你们才有希望论证清楚我们这个民族如何是“最优秀”的。无论如何，你们不能带着屎去做“最优秀”。

最初由 光辉岁月 发布


你的辩论方法有问题，你驳斥的东西是别人没说过的。就象拿着一把破枪，对着虚空乱刺一样。我什么时候说“屎”变成“胭脂膏”了？我又什么时候说“自己抹上身”了？是的，有一些人就爱抹一些东西在中国人身上，然后大声嚷嚷，说，“快来看哪，中国人身上有屎！”，岂不知，屎是他自己抹的，更可悲的是，他也是中国人！

你的逻辑是(如果不对，请纠正)，印尼杀中国人，和广西吃人是一样的？我想说的是，这两者有本质上的不同。一个是因为愚昧和残忍，把他人看作猎物和野兽。另一个是种族上的蔑视和仇恨。后者的矛头直指全体中国人，也包括你。我不想掀起仇恨，但是如果对方因为一时得逞而洋洋自得，我必须用我的力量阻止他再次冒犯。

 

[lifeisfun]

最初由 光辉岁月 发布


你的辩论方法有问题，你驳斥的东西是别人没说过的。就象拿着一把破枪，对着虚空乱刺一样。我什么时候说“屎”变成“胭脂膏”了？我又什么时候说“自己抹上身”了？是的，有一些人就爱抹一些东西在中国人身上，然后大声嚷嚷，说，“快来看哪，中国人身上有屎！”，岂不知，屎是他自己抹的，更可悲的是，他也是中国人！

你的逻辑是(如果不对，请纠正)，印尼杀中国人，和广西吃人是一样的？我想说的是，这两者有本质上的不同。一个是因为愚昧和残忍，把他人看作猎物和野兽。另一个是种族上的蔑视和仇恨。后者的矛头直指全体中国人，也包括你。我不想掀起仇恨，但是如果对方因为一时得逞而洋洋自得，我必须用我的力量阻止他再次冒犯。

另一个是种族上的蔑视和仇恨。后者的矛头直指全体中国人

How come you get this conclusion? Don't get it. I feel they did that just because Chinese in Indonesian are rich and they are jealous. Remember those Chinese have lived there for centuries and they should be considered more of Indonesian than Chinese. So don't try to rasie this to such a conclusion that Indocesian did those just because they hate all Chinese. They should hate Japanese more than Chinese as Japan invaded in in WW II.

On the other side, there are other violence in Indonesian than this incident, It's just a country of chaos as they just kill each other.

You said the other folk having probleming in his argument. But I do feel you have some problem in your argument.

You have to be careful as it's very easy to spread hatred here blindly.

 

[lifeisfun]

最初由 光辉岁月 发布


这个问题和“指责别人身上有屎”没关系。如果你喜欢比喻，我告诉你一个，这是“不小心自己划了自己一刀，和别人划自己一刀”的区别。自己的一刀也痛，但是没有屈辱。别人的一刀不单单是痛，还有羞耻。
如果喜欢用屎作比喻，是这样的。自己不小心弄到身上屎了，洗洗干净，还是可以昂首阔步的。但是，别人往你身上泼屎，不但要马上洗干净，还要逼迫那个渣滓道歉，如果拒不道歉，还让你赔他的屎钱，你打他吗？是可忍，孰不可忍？

即使回到你的观点，这世上又有那位“指责别人身上有屎的时候，把自己的屁股擦干净”了？就拿最爱标榜自己民主自由的那位美国大叔来说，伊拉克入侵科威特的时候，比谁都爱维护和平。轮到自己入侵伊拉克的时候，连理由都懒得找了。

自己不小心弄到身上屎了，洗洗干净.

Did we really clean ourselves? I guess not, maybe just hide it using some clothing and therefore, you still have that bad smell.

So don't feel so good even we are getting rich and maybe having some fancy colthing on. If we couldn't self-exam our own past and correct
those, you will still carry that smell and it is a shame.

 

[光辉岁月]

最初由 lifeisfun 发布



另一个是种族上的蔑视和仇恨。后者的矛头直指全体中国人

How come you get this conclusion? Don't get it. I feel they did that just because Chinese in Indonesian are rich and they are jealous. Remember those Chinese have lived there for centuries and they should be considered more of Indonesian than Chinese. So don't try to rasie this to such a conclusion that Indocesian did those just because they hate all Chinese. They should hate Japanese more than Chinese as Japan invaded in in WW II.

On the other side, there are other violence in Indonesian than this incident, It's just a country of chaos as they just kill each other.

You said the other folk having probleming in his argument. But I do feel you have some problem in your argument.

日本人和印尼人有没有rich的？在暴乱中，他们有多少人全家被杀，女人被强奸的？如果只是嫉妒富裕，为什麽专找中国人下手？难道那些印尼人没说“中国人滚出印尼”吗？“中国人如果不去印尼，可以到别处去投资”，难道不是印尼的驻台湾代表说的吗？印尼几十年来的政策不是排华的吗？
什麽样的行为才能让你感到作为中国人受到了污辱？？？还是你根本麻木到感受不到侮辱？？或者，你真的认为自己是一个西方人了，中国人的尊严与你没关系？

 

[光辉岁月]

最初由 lifeisfun 发布


自己不小心弄到身上屎了，洗洗干净.

Did we really clean ourselves? I guess not, maybe just hide it using some clothing and therefore, you still have that bad smell.

So don't feel so good even we are getting rich and maybe having some fancy colthing on. If we couldn't self-exam our own past and correct
those, you will still carry that smell and it is a shame.

你是说中国还在吃人？如果不是，凭什麽你认为我们没有改正？要怎麽样你才认为它改了？说话要负责任，要有证据。中国是我们的祖国，我们要帮它改正错误，而不是恣意侮辱。泼污水的同时，你应该想想你也是中国人。
如果我说美国人还没清除干净，仅仅因为他们曾经对印第安人犯下的暴行，你同意吗？其实，它还真没改，这不，又去轰炸伊拉克了。

 

[lifeisfun]

最初由 光辉岁月 发布


你是说中国还在吃人？如果不是，凭什麽你认为我们没有改正？要怎麽样你才认为它改了？说话要负责任，要有证据。中国是我们的祖国，我们要帮它改正错误，而不是恣意侮辱。泼污水的同时，你应该想想你也是中国人。
如果我说美国人还没清除干净，仅仅因为他们曾经对印第安人犯下的暴行，你同意吗？其实，它还真没改，这不，又去轰炸伊拉克了。

I am not saying there exist Chinese eating Chinese nowadays (at least not directly). I just want to say that there was not enough self-exam and investigation on those events happened many years ago, and therefore, there is no guarantee that it won't happen again. Also there is no compensation to those families whose loved ones died. Germen can compensate to Jews for those crime they committed, why not our government, who has tons of money now. Just let this piece of history pass and let people forget is not acceptable. Just like you don't want to forget the violence in Indonesian before, those families whose members dies in those years in China, should also have the right to rememebr.

I am a Chinese and I love China. That's why I want to self-exam ourselves and our country in order to make it better and better. You sounds like you like China, but you don't like face many problems we had before and having right now. Whenever someone come to point out this, you guys will use those words such as: Are you Chinese? Why cann't a Chinese critisize its country, is that the foundation of the democracy?

BTW, watch your words when you write your comments. Let's just discuss things. If I offend you in any peronal way, let me know and I will apology to you.

 

[光辉岁月]

最初由 北京痞子 发布
你可别给bigcooler帮倒忙。人家可说了，中国人是“世界上最优秀的民族”。世界上最优秀的民族难道还能是愚昧和残忍的？你这不是给人家添堵么。

所以，诸位爱国小将们，你们的正确做法是：

1. 证明“易子而食”之类的说法是古人胡说八道，从来没发生过。中国人从来没吃过人。“两脚羊”是胡说八道，“菜人”是胡说八道，《资治通鉴》胡说八道，鲁迅胡说八道，郑义胡说八道……一切关于中国人吃人的言论统统胡说八道――我们身上没屎。

2. 或者，你们论证吃人不是什么大不了的恶行，是我们的伟大传统。你们知道当年胡耀邦派人调查广西吃人事件时，武宣党委是怎么表态的？他们说，武宣“自古以来就有吃人的传统”。看见了吧？吃人可是个传统。就像方肘子说的那样，我们不但要吃人，还要吃出经验，吃出艺术。――我们身上黄灿灿的东西不是屎，是胭脂膏。

只有这样，你们才有希望论证清楚我们这个民族如何是“最优秀”的。无论如何，你们不能带着屎去做“最优秀”。

看看，说你多少次了，就是不听，“屎”就是屎，不是“胭脂膏”。没办法，你如果总是把“屎”和“胭脂膏”相提并论，随你吧。
中华民族是世界上的伟大民族之一，这一点我从不怀疑。但是伟大的民族，不代表没有犯过错误，特别是当你手里拿了一个放大镜的时候，这就好像你不能保证你的双手永远干净一样，除非你什麽也不干。“香港脚”并不影响一个人成为名模，更别提现在已经治好了。广西就是我们的脚，“吃人的传统”（如果存在）曾经是我们的脚气病。现在已经好了，你还要说什麽？

我越来越清楚地感觉到有些人就是想丑化中华民族，没办法，“谁家没有丑孩子呢”（普京）

 

[lifeisfun]

最初由 光辉岁月 发布


日本人和印尼人有没有rich的？在暴乱中，他们有多少人全家被杀，女人被强奸的？如果只是嫉妒富裕，为什麽专找中国人下手？难道那些印尼人没说“中国人滚出印尼”吗？“中国人如果不去印尼，可以到别处去投资”，难道不是印尼的驻台湾代表说的吗？印尼几十年来的政策不是排华的吗？
什麽样的行为才能让你感到作为中国人受到了污辱？？？还是你根本麻木到感受不到侮辱？？或者，你真的认为自己是一个西方人了，中国人的尊严与你没关系？

Well, I watched CBC two days ago about Indonecia. People are worrying about the relief work there as the most hard hitted araea also had civil war. Therefore, the relief worker and local people has no trust on milliary. Also Indonesian killed many people in east Timo several years ago. So the situation there is very chaos and this is a country lack of law and order.

As for the relation of Indonecia and China, in my memory, it was pretty good in those years when Mao and Suhato was in power. Sure you can say that's all politics and I agree.

As for those Chinese living in Indonecia, yes, they are Chinese in origin, but they have been living there for generations and they are Indonesian first (as they don't have China nationality). Sure, we should care for them and condemn any violence on them, but please also extend this to anyone, not only Chinese in origin, but also
Indocesian who suffered war, and east Timo, and those real Chinese died in China. That's my point.

Please watch your words lihe this: 什麽样的行为才能让你感到作为中国人受到了污辱？？？还是你根本麻木到感受不到侮辱？？或者，你真的认为自己是一个西方人了，中国人的尊严与你没关系？
I know you are angry, but why don't you also feel anger on those who killed our folks in China. Is that just because they are Chinese, you can forgive them?

I mention in my other posting that I am also angry on those violence in Indonesian and not only me, many people in Cananda also worry about that country. If you want guys want do something, why not accuse those in international tribunal, but instead just yelling here and try to interfere the relief effort.

As a Chinese, I do feel 污辱 by those crime, but also I do understand blind hatred won't solve the problem. We should punish those bad guys, but care for the innocent. Got my point.

 

[lifeisfun]

最初由 捶妮春 发布


你想红朝照你的思路去发展.
不过, 你以为你是谁啊?

I am just myself, an ordinary people. Whether 红朝 will do what I said, I don't know. It could do that, but may take long long time.
Everying is changing in China and can you imagine you can sit there chatting freely 30 years ago. Why not say it's impossible.

The other point is that it's not if 红朝 would like to do it or not, it's the people who decide the future. Ordinary Chinese people can support you but also against you. So what you just said should be converted into:

红朝, 你以为你是谁啊

 

[光辉岁月]

最初由 lifeisfun 发布


I am not saying there exist Chinese eating Chinese nowadays (at least not directly). I just want to say that there was not enough self-exam and investigation on those events happened many years ago, and therefore, there is no guarantee that it won't happen again. Also there is no compensation to those families whose loved ones died. Germen can compensate to Jews for those crime they committed, why not our government, who has tons of money now. Just let this piece of history pass and let people forget is not acceptable. Just like you don't want to forget the violence in Indonesian before, those families whose members dies in those years in China, should also have the right to rememebr.

I am a Chinese and I love China. That's why I want to self-exam ourselves and our country in order to make it better and better. You sounds like you like China, but you don't like face many problems we had before and having right now. Whenever someone come to point out this, you guys will use those words such as: Are you Chinese? Why cann't a Chinese critisize its country, is that the foundation of the democracy?

BTW, watch your words when you write your comments. Let's just discuss things. If I offend you in any peronal way, let me know and I will apology to you.

哈哈，你的反应很快，不坏！我只想问你一个问题，中国现在是不是比以前强大了，进步了，民主了？如果中国不是一只在self-exam并且face the problems，你认为会这样吗？
作为一个中国人，我们是应该批评国家如果它有错误，这是我们的责任。但是，有些人把中国自己的错误和印尼对中国人的暴行相提并论，我不同意，如此而已。
还有，民主在中国应该缓行，这是另一个话题了。

 

[光辉岁月]

最初由 lifeisfun 发布

As a Chinese, I do feel 污辱 by those crime, but also I do understand blind hatred won't solve the problem. We should punish those bad guys, but care for the innocent. Got my point.

作为一个中国人，印尼暴行让你感到了屈辱，这就是了。我也没有盲目仇恨，如果那样，我就不会坐在这里了，我就提刀去印尼了。仇恨，不仅仅因为他们的暴行（太残暴了，而且是对女人），更多的是因为至今他们的政府没给出一个正式的说法和道歉，杀人者仍高高在上，逍遥法外。
你要知道，98年据今不远，如果中国人如此轻易地忘记了发生的事情，下一次暴乱，可能是印尼，可能是加拿大，受害的还是中国人，为什麽？因为全世界的人都知道，杀海外中国男人，奸海外中国女人，没事！尽管去干。仅可以把它们国内的矛盾转到中国人身上
一代人有一代人的责任，你不希望广西吃人被人遗忘，难道你希望印尼暴行被人遗忘吗？我想，你更不希望印尼暴行再来一次吧。如果说中国政府应该为广西吃人负责，印尼政府不应该对华人作出赔偿吗？如果说我们能为此发出我们的声音，为什莫不呢？
至于你说的把他们抓上国际法庭，不可能啊。印尼是美国的爪牙，美国人会把他们送上法庭吗？国际社会同声谴责的东帝汶屠杀事件，谁上法庭了？因为美国支持啊。再说了，国际法庭不过是个摆设，如果真有正义，美国的那个布什早就应该去了。

 

[lifeisfun]

最初由 光辉岁月 发布


作为一个中国人，印尼暴行让你感到了屈辱，这就是了。我也没有盲目仇恨，如果那样，我就不会坐在这里了，我就提刀去印尼了。仇恨，不仅仅因为他们的暴行（太残暴了，而且是对女人），更多的是因为至今他们的政府没给出一个正式的说法和道歉，杀人者仍高高在上，逍遥法外。
你要知道，98年据今不远，如果中国人如此轻易地忘记了发生的事情，下一次暴乱，可能是印尼，可能是加拿大，受害的还是中国人，为什麽？因为全世界的人都知道，杀海外中国男人，奸海外中国女人，没事！尽管去干。仅可以把它们国内的矛盾转到中国人身上
一代人有一代人的责任，你不希望广西吃人被人遗忘，难道你希望印尼暴行被人遗忘吗？我想，你更不希望印尼暴行再来一次吧。如果说中国政府应该为广西吃人负责，印尼政府不应该对华人作出赔偿吗？如果说我们能为此发出我们的声音，为什莫不呢？
至于你说的把他们抓上国际法庭，不可能啊。印尼是美国的爪牙，美国人会把他们送上法庭吗？国际社会同声谴责的东帝汶屠杀事件，谁上法庭了？因为美国支持啊。再说了，国际法庭不过是个摆设，如果真有正义，美国的那个布什早就应该去了。

印尼是美国的爪牙, wrong, Indonesian doesn' have good relation with USA as it's the largest Muslim country in the world. I guess you didn't forget who made the Bali bombing two years which kill hundreds westerner, most of them are Australians.

Having said that, why did Autralia made the largest donation so far (700 millions) to help those in Tsumani? Do they have hatred, for sure they do. But do they feel they should help the innocent, sure they do too.

 

[lifeisfun]

最初由 光辉岁月 发布


哈哈，你的反应很快，不坏！我只想问你一个问题，中国现在是不是比以前强大了，进步了，民主了？如果中国不是一只在self-exam并且face the problems，你认为会这样吗？
作为一个中国人，我们是应该批评国家如果它有错误，这是我们的责任。但是，有些人把中国自己的错误和印尼对中国人的暴行相提并论，我不同意，如此而已。
还有，民主在中国应该缓行，这是另一个话题了。

So looks like we have some common conclusions. If you don't want to see that 把中国自己的错误和印尼对中国人的暴行相提并论. Then why do you want to relate those innocent people like children and women who suffer in the disaster with those bad guys who committe the crime? just because they are all Indonesian? If you think you can, then why cann't I relate those bad guys in China with those bad guys in Indonesian, as I think they are all bad guys as they all kill people.