好笑的基督教

[CHRIS88]

LS注意留底，免得丢失。

 

[CatLostHerFish]

古罗马教育

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/roman_education.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Ancient_Rome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome#Education
http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/how-children-educated-ancient-rome
http://science.jrank.org/pages/9075/Education-in-Europe-Roman-Education.html

在罗马共和国时代，教育基本由父母进行，或者几家合伙找老师进行私人教育。到了罗马帝国时代，随着罗马征服希腊化文化的区域，罗马受到希腊文化影响。
罗马开始有正规学校，但是因为收费，不是谁都能负担得起。也有很少的免费学校。
有些女孩在小时候有受教育的机会。

看了几个网站，得出一个结论。古罗马根本不重视科学教育。他们的教育注重现实意义，和希腊的教育的出发点完全不同。
古罗马人注重公众演讲技能的培养，这个中国是没有的。估计跟他们的法律系统有关系。古罗马在共和国时期就有了公民陪审法庭，所以他们lawyer必须雄辩，以说服陪审团。
难怪都说古希腊是科学的源头，古罗马是法律的源头。

希腊化文明始于亚历山大大帝，结束于 AD 30年罗马征服托勒密。其后罗马人又不重视科学，从罗马帝国到中世纪5世纪之间，科学是一种什么状态呢？好奇。

零星找到的资料：

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_in_classical_antiquity#Roman_Empire

The highest level of Roman education began at about the age of sixteen and focused on rhetoric. As in Greek education, the goal was to learn to speak and write effectively as needed in public life and the law courts. If anything, the emphasis on oratory in Roman schools was stronger than in Greek schools because other parts of the Greek curriculum, such as music and athletics, were eliminated, and the Romans had little interest in science and philosophy. Roman schools used rhetoric manuals that systematized Greek rhetorical instruction.

Read more: Education in Europe - Roman Education - Greek, Rhetoric, Schools, and Greco - JRank Articles http://science.jrank.org/pages/9075/Education-in-Europe-Roman-Education.html#ixzz2TxMDvuyu

顺便记录一下这段时间的一些大事件：

Constantine I 306 -- 337 第一个convert成基督徒的帝国皇帝。因为是和别的信仰的人一起当的co 帝国皇帝，必须要解决宗教冲突问题。颁布了容忍所有宗教的法令。
Jovian 363 -- 364 烧毁Library of Antioch。(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_libraries#Human_action)
Theodosius 379 -- 395 第一个把基督教列为国教的帝国皇帝，开始宗教迫害。
AD 392 烧毁 Library of the Serapeum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_libraries#Human_action)
Pope Gregory I 590 -- 604 反对世俗的人(layman)得到教育。

 

[CatLostHerFish]

LS注意留底，免得丢失。

窃窃的问一句，为什么会丢失?是说网络维护导致数据丢失还是人为的会有人过滤？我还以为这里言论听自由的呢。

 

[CHRIS88]

窃窃的问一句，为什么会丢失?是说网络维护导致数据丢失还是人为的会有人过滤？我还以为这里言论听自由的呢。

呵呵，误会了。前两天不是在换系统吗？

 

[CatLostHerFish]

另外，既然您提到＂道德＂作为信心的＂障碍＂，那么，我想我可以问您两个相关的问题：１）什么是道德？２）道德的根源是什么？

在谈具体的道德标准之前，先看看下面这个经典的道德问题。

亚伯拉罕服从上帝的指示准备杀死儿子

可否回答如果你遇到同样的场景，你会如何处理？

 

[CatLostHerFish]

呵呵，误会了。前两天不是在换系统吗？

今天刚发现，谢谢提醒。

 

[一心无住]

在谈具体的道德标准之前，先看看下面这个经典的道德问题。

亚伯拉罕服从上帝的指示准备杀死儿子

可否回答如果你遇到同样的场景，你会如何处理？

有好多基督徒杀死自己的儿女，这样的新闻报道经常有。这就是答案！

 

[CHRIS88]

在谈具体的道德标准之前，先看看下面这个经典的道德问题。

亚伯拉罕服从上帝的指示准备杀死儿子

可否回答如果你遇到同样的场景，你会如何处理？

 

[CHRIS88]

在谈具体的道德标准之前，先看看下面这个经典的道德问题。

亚伯拉罕服从上帝的指示准备杀死儿子

可否回答如果你遇到同样的场景，你会如何处理？

哈，好问题！简单回答1）如果我是亚伯拉罕 我自然作亚伯拉罕所作的；2）如果现在我耳边有个声音要我杀人，我会毫不犹豫地斥责：撒旦，退一边去。

你问的不是道德问题，是神学问题。以后详谈。

 

[CatLostHerFish]

哈，好问题！简单回答1）如果我是亚伯拉罕 我自然作亚伯拉罕所作的；2）如果现在我耳边有个声音要我杀人，我会毫不犹豫地斥责：撒旦，退一边去。

你问的不是道德问题，是神学问题。以后详谈。

这个是基督教的道德观的很好的例子。所以不能跳过。

很多非基督徒都回觉得亚伯拉罕所作所为不可思议。因为非基督徒的道德标准建立在natural law的基础上。杀害一个无辜的人，这个是犯罪。杀害自己的孩子，感情上过不去。
但是基督徒不同，基督徒除了遵循natural law以外，还要遵循Ten Commandments(基督教的devine law)，其中很重要的一条就是要服从上帝：

http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/Obedience-To-God.htm

如果不服从上帝，就会被诅咒。

In the story of the Ten Commandments, we see how important the concept of obedience is to God. Deuteronomy 11:26–28 sums it up like this: "Obey and you will be blessed. Disobey and you will be cursed."

而上帝对人的指令，来自耳边的声音。对听到的声音，基督徒要做的就是信任，执行。这是濒临与natural law之上的law，是要摒弃个人的判断的无条件的执行。
亚伯拉罕之所以被称道，就是因为他抛弃了natural law无条件的执行了Ten Commandments(devine law)。

So, biblical obedience means, simply, to hear, trust, submit and surrender to God and obey his Word.

如果现在我耳边有个声音要我杀人，我会毫不犹豫地斥责：撒旦，退一边去

这个是你的natural law在起作用。在你听到耳边的声音的时候，你怎么知道这个违反natural law的命令不是来自上帝？
人能分辨撒旦和上帝的声音的区别吗？用什么标准？

 

[CHRIS88]

这个是基督教的道德观的很好的例子。所以不能跳过。

很多非基督徒都回觉得亚伯拉罕所作所为不可思议。因为非基督徒的道德标准建立在natural law的基础上。杀害一个无辜的人，这个是犯罪。杀害自己的孩子，感情上过不去。
但是基督徒不同，基督徒除了遵循natural law以外，还要遵循Ten Commandments(基督教的devine law)，其中很重要的一条就是要服从上帝：

http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/Obedience-To-God.htm

如果不服从上帝，就会被诅咒。



而上帝对人的指令，来自耳边的声音。对听到的声音，基督徒要做的就是信任，执行。这是濒临与natural law之上的law，是要摒弃个人的判断的无条件的执行。
亚伯拉罕之所以被称道，就是因为他抛弃了natural law无条件的执行了Ten Commandments(devine law)。




这个是你的natural law在起作用。在你听到耳边的声音的时候，你怎么知道这个违反natural law的命令不是来自上帝？
人能分辨撒旦和上帝的声音的区别吗？用什么标准？

呵呵，是啊。既然你对这个问题如此在意，我们自然要好好讨论。

这个话题牵涉面比较广，在本质上是一个神学问题。我所知有限，现在也较忙，过两天回答你吧。不迟过下周。

 

[CatLostHerFish]

中世纪历史很复杂，看了后面往了前面，还是先拿阿Q的帖子娱乐一下。

Wiki关于狄奥多西期间对异教徒prosecution的完整描述

用俺自己的话转述是：

1、在几十年间，狄奥多西一世和他的继任者对异教徒的态度有反复，既有全面禁止任何除了‘正统基督教’以外的宗教活动 ，到任命异教徒为地方总督，重修犹太教会堂

这个结论是误导人的。我看完wiki，得到的结论是狄奥多西一世和他的继任者对异教徒的态度是一步步从宽容走向迫害，不是反复。


2、所有prosecution都是以法律形式明确，所有法律和诏书现在仍然在案。这些法律大致是这样的：

2.1 摧毁异教徒寺庙和异教徒偶像，或者充公、改造成教堂

2.2 对异教徒的宗教活动的处罚可能是没收财产，包括房子，以及罚款

2.3 对离开的基督教徒的处罚是取消定遗嘱的权力，不清楚是不是这意味着死后他的财产会被没收

2.4 有两处提到对占卜和“carrying out pagan sacrificial rituals”处以死刑，但没有查到在这这几十年prosecution期间异教徒死亡的任何统计信息或者任何个例的详细描述 －当然没有记载不等于没有发生，但是既然没有具体材料，就不能轻易下结论

3、相反，上面多个帖子已经提到了5世纪历史文献关于在这期间关于异教徒杀死基督徒的诸多事例

4、奇怪的是，很少在中文版本的反基督教材料中看到狄奥多西一世对帖撒罗尼迦7000人屠杀的指控，下帖再讲

这里想到两点。

1. 袁老师说到罗马的十二铜表法，里面有一条就是提出对私有财产的保护。很显然这里在法律的意义上是倒退了。
2. 基督教的moral law里，异教和亵渎神灵都是重罪，对异教徒的迫害算是对基督教的moral law的延伸了吧。

帖撒罗尼迦7000人屠杀事件

390年，希腊城市帖撒罗尼迦的总督，或者是罗马皇帝派驻的最高军事长官 Butheric，逮捕了一名很受欢迎的战车御者（一名当时的体育明星），这个同性恋者试图强奸一名cupbearer（百度讲他是一名奴隶，实际上cupbearer是在当时宗教仪式上有相当地位的人，可能不是奴隶），占当地大多数人口的人要求Butheric释放这个人，遭到拒绝后，当地发生了暴动，包括Butheric在内的多名高级军官被杀死

狄奥多西一世听闻后暴怒，派军队到帖撒罗尼迦镇压，很快狄奥多西一世改变主意，派使者去制止军队屠杀，但是已经造成了估计7000人被杀

米兰主教安波罗修（Ambrose）拒绝皇帝领圣餐，并威胁要将他开除出教，直到狄奥多西进行几个月的告解后，他才能再次领受圣餐

下面是主教Ambrose给皇帝的一封信：

What could I do? Should I not hear? But I could not clog my ears with wax, as old fables tell. Should I then speak about what I heard? But I was obliged to avoid precisely what I feared could be brought about by your orders, that is, a bloodshed. Should I remain silent? But then the worst thing would happen as my conscience would be bound and my words taken away. And where would they be then? When a priest does not talk to a sinner, then the sinner will die in his sin, and the priest will be guilty because he failed to correct him

这里想到两点。
1. 主教Ambrose是个Christian universalist。东方西红柿可以看看我说的最开始的基督教徒信的和现在不一样到底是指的什么。
2. 帖撒罗尼迦7000人屠杀事件的缘起不是镇压异教徒，所以主教Ambrose会有正义感。
仔细看看，狄奥多西一世当年的迫害异教徒的政策是主教Ambrose推动的。

 

[CatLostHerFish]

开始看中世纪早期(真正的Dark Age时代)的教育。

先重新回顾一下罗马历史。罗马从306年就已经开始逐渐转换成基督教国家。途中出现了焚烧图书馆事件。
用阿Q体说，这里可以安全的得出一个结论，在基督教统治下的罗马帝国，根本对科学没兴趣。不是科学发展的土壤。
基督教对科学的兴趣不是天生的。

接下来看中世纪早期。

中世纪因为蛮族入侵，造成古典书籍被大量破坏，语言被蛮族语言替代，造成古典书籍没人能懂。这个是很多基督徒传播的‘真理’。
但是，当时的基督教教会基本上是没有被破坏的。一些古典书籍在基督教的修道院中仍然得以保存，而且这些神职人员是有能力看懂古典书籍的。
在罗马时期的学校，因为战乱而停止运作。按照常识，比如中国，四川大学之类的老牌大学都是历经改朝换代的，一旦战乱过去，到了和平时期，学校就又运作正常了。
这个常识在中世纪没有适用。我看到的原因有两个，一个是蛮族执政，对教育缺乏兴趣。另一个是唯一有知识根基的教堂有意的干预，摧毁任何可能的竞争者。

所以中世纪早期造成了非常不正常的，只有修道院才有教育权的局面。百度的下面的结论在这段时期是没问题的：
(2) 教会统治非常严厉，并且控制了西欧的文化教育
(4) 严格控制科学思想的传播
(5) 学校教育也都是为了服务于神学

http://education-portal.com/academy/lesson/the-dark-ages-loss-of-classical-culture.html

Causes for the Loss of Classical Culture
Why did this happen? Well, there were several factors.

Many of these branches died out naturally. The Roman Empire had been united by a common language. As Germanic peoples with new languages invaded the empire, this common language was lost and literacy plummeted. Very few people could read the works of the ancient world, and pretty much no one was writing anything new. The barbarians who invaded the Roman Empire had little use for poetry or philosophy. Their culture was far more primitive. With no one to appreciate or maintain these branches of culture, many of them died off simply from disuse.

Yet many of the branches were willfully destroyed as the early Church tried to wipe out its competition. Any idea that challenged the new order was destroyed. Religions that had persisted for centuries were wiped out overnight. Entire schools of philosophy were put to the torch.

Only Church-approved beliefs were allowed to survive, and these were tightly controlled to keep them in line with Christian orthodoxy. Anyone who tried to start a new branch or explore other, non-Christian ways of thought was labeled a heretic. Their ideas were banned, and their followers faced a grisly demise.

Dark Age的转机，我看到两个，一个是Charles Martel，他看是意识到要对公众进行教育，但是也只局限于 他认为的important men。同时改变光是宗教教育的局面。
这个是从Dark Age 开始两百年后的事了。也就是说有两百年大家都只有一本书，Bible。而且只有教会人员能真正看到Bible，别的人连看的权利和能力都没有。

Charles Martel or Charles the Hammer (23 August 686 - 22 October 741)

http://www.medievality.com/education.html

During the Roman Times, most noble kids were educated before the age of fourteen. The schools were small and numerous and often taught Greek and Latin to its students. With the Fall of Rome in 476, most educational institutions ceased to function. Teaching changed radically in a century and geared toward religion - the institution that would dominate education for the following millennium. In the Early Middle Ages the vast majority of the population was uneducated; this was later reflected in poor political decisions, much conflict and lack of any centralized power.

Charles Martel was the first ruler who sought to educate the population. At first, he appointed several priests to educate the sons of important men. Gradually he changed education from being purely related to God to including more practical knowledge such as mathematics and Latin. By this time education had increased considerably but very few could read and write and even fewer pursued a higher education.

更过的网站提到的是Charlemagne 的教育改革。他正式的提出法案，要求教会承担起免费教育有才能的人的责任。
这个是从Dark Age开始300年以后的事了。也就是说在500-800年间，基督教教会对Bible以外的教育，对公众教育是没有兴趣的。
基督教对教育的兴趣不是天生的。

http://www.medieval-life.net/education.htm

Medieval education was often conducted under the auspices of the Church. During the 800s, French ruler Charlemagne realized his empire needed educated people if it was to survive, and he turned to the Catholic Church as the source of such education. His decree commanded that every cathedral and monastery was to establish a school to provide a free education to every boy who had the intelligence and the perseverance to follow a demanding course of study.

Grammar, rhetoric, logic, Latin, astronomy, philosophy and mathematics formed the core of most curriculums.

但是有人指出，Charlemagne 的教育改革只对贵族子女起作用，而且只持续了一段时间，所以其作用存在争议。到了1330年，仍然只有5%的人能读会写，估计是不是都是神职人员哦。

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/YALDeducation.htm

In 1330 only about 5% of the population could read or write. It was extremely rare for peasants to be literate. Some lords of the manor had laws banning serfs from being educated.

There were three main types of schools in the 14th century: the elementary song-school, the monastic school and the grammar school.

They also followed the Roman example of not spending much time on subjects such as mathematics and science.

 

[CatLostHerFish]

看看Dark Age的时候，基督教如何解释自然现象？


http://www.medieval-life.net/education.htm

During the Dark Ages, the only natural science learned came from popular encyclopedias based on ancient writings of Pliny and other Roman sources. The medieval student might learn that hyenas can change their sex at will and that an elephant's only fear is of dragons. Students learned more when they ventured out into the countryside to talk with trappers, hunters, furriers and poachers, who spent their time observing wildlife.

http://education-portal.com/academy/lesson/how-thomas-aquinas-saved-the-faith-from-reason.html

基督教当时的哲学基础是柏拉图，因为柏拉图的理想国和基督的完美是匹配的。

Christianity's Obsession with Plato

You see, when early Christians were establishing their own philosophical grounding, they borrowed heavily from Plato. The idea that the truth was something inaccessible to the senses had obvious religious applications.

Plato's distaste for the material world was well-suited to the Christian mindset, while the realm of forms must have sounded kind of like heaven. And so the church bound itself tightly to Platonic philosophy at an early age.

To give you some concept of how entwined Platonism had become with Christianity, let's have a look at the scholarship of medieval Christians. If you were to ask a medieval scholar, why is the rose red and why does it have thorns, the scholar would reply that the rose is red for the blood of Christ and the thorns are there to remind us of our Lord's crucifixion. Here we can kind of see how the Christians co-opted Plato's notion of perfect forms being reflected in the material world. They'd just replaced perfect forms with perfect Jesus.

 

[CHRIS88]

CatLostHerFish, 如果你对圣经的难题感兴趣，这里收集了一些，以后会收集更多。

圣经难题汇编



当然，这些书中的答案不一定都对。要找到正确答案，你还是得在圣灵的带领下自己读经祷告。